Hot Crescent Rolls… A Bubble?

by Tammy Plotner on October 16, 2009

The Crescent Nebula by Dietmar Hager and Immo Gerber

The Crescent Nebula by Dietmar Hager and Immo Gerber

The Crescent Nebula, also known as NGC 6888, is a very well renown and most intriguing object located in the constellation Cygnus in the northern hemisphere. At an apparent size of about 18 by 13 arc-minutes it is a very pale nebula. Even in a moderate amateur telescope you can’t quite see this one unless you have absolute dark skies (or narrow band filters) and a decent “light bucket”. So how do we get a chance to study it? Photographically, of course…

Spanning some 25 by 18 light years, gazing at NGC 6888 means we are looking 4700 years into the past, a past that renders a nebula fueled and excited by the blue star at the center. And not just any blue star – but a high mass super-giant star – one that depleted its fuel at “full speed”. Not only was it a super giant, but hot… in the class of “Wolf Rayet” stars (HD 192163). Now, after only a couple of million years the “stellar gas” is almost used up and the star is standing right before a significant change: a supernova candidate. Behold a star that vents its outer layers into space at terrific speed!

“Images are used to constrain models of the ionization structure of nebular features.” says Brian D. Moore (et al) of the Department of Physics and Astronomy, Arizona State University, “From these models, we infer physical conditions within features and estimate elemental abundances within the nebula. The results of our analysis, together with the degree of small-scale inhomogeneity apparent in the images, call into question the assumptions underlying traditional methodologies for interpretation of nebular spectroscopy. The thermal pressure of photoionized clumps is higher than the inferred internal pressure of the shocked stellar wind, implying that the current physical conditions have changed significantly over less than a few thousand years.”

While the central star sustains severe loss of mass, the gas is holding lots of oxygen and hydrogen… just before the individual big “bang” of the WR-star creating a “hot bubble” whose struture can’t quite be explained yet. “A detailed analysis of the H I distribution at low positive velocities allowed us to identify two different structures very probably related to the star and the ring nebula. From inside to outside they are: (1) an elliptical shell, 11.8×6.3 pc in size, that embraces the ring nebula (labeled inner shell); and (2) a distorted H I ring, 28 pc in diameter, also detected in IR emission (outer shell). The borders of the inner shell strikingly follows the brightest regions of NGC 6888, showing the sites where the interaction between the nebula and the surrounding gas occurs. A third structure, the external feature, is a broken arc detected at slightly higher velocities than the former shells.” says Christina Cappa (et al), “We propose a scenario in which the strong stellar wind of HD 192163, expanding in an inhomogeneous interstellar medium, blew the outer shell during the main sequence phase of the star. Later, the material ejected by the star during the LBV (or RSG) and WR phases created NGC 6888. This material encountered the innermost wall of the outer shell originating the inner shell. The association of the external feature with the star and the nebula is not clear.”

For a look inside, view the full size image!

Many thanks to Dietmar Hager and Immo Gerber of TAO-Observatory for sharing this incredible image!

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    The article above quotes the following;

    “A detailed analysis of the H I distribution at low positive velocities allowed us to identify two different structures very probably related to the star and the ring nebula. “

    The link to the the planetary nebula known as the Ring Nebula (M57), is quite incorrect. They are referring the planetary nebulae in general which display rings
    The quote itself is also misleading, as structures like these are mostly found in bipolar nebulae or bipolar planetary nebulae.
    The author of the quote probably stated “ring” as few understand what bipolar nebulae are or mean.

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    In a previous post I said;

    Magnetic field strength in nebulosities are only significant in supernova remnants, where the ‘fossil’ magnetic field of 10^?3 G, which is likely caused by the charge separation of the expanding shock fronts.

    The magnetic field strength should read 10^-3 G.

    Sorry for the confusion.

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    To again paraphrase my previous post of October 18th, 2009 at 1:27 am you deleted, removing the possible offending inferences, I said;

    Oh Anaconda. — ————… Quoting from one of your fraudulent sites again, which we have already proven is entirely EU propaganda. Fallacies on top of more fallacies.?

    Worst is quoting; “And astrophysical plasmas may behave differently to terrestrial plasmas.” .. and yet this ———— claims experimentation on Earth can be applied to astrophysical phenomena!?

    So plasma occupy all the universe, but good ‘ol local plasma is different than universal plasma! (Ha Ha Ha! So Funny. You just destroyed one of your own basic tenants that your always rabbeting on about!)?

    As to defining plasma, it seems you change mind to suit whatever your mood. Next you’ll be telling us that ordinary ionic dissociation in a glass of water is also plasma!!
    ?
    Sorry just posting bogus sites, prompted by proven ———— —————–, like yourself, is no basis for scientific enquiry nor believability.?”ionized gas” is plasma.?Is not actually correct.?

    Only “highly ionized gas” is considered a plasma.

    ?Cold plasma’s (I assume you mean the equally non sequitur*, nonthermal plasma) are just an unsophisticated joke!!?

    Frankly, from past experience, you couldn’t tell in space what is plasma and what is ordinary run-of-the-mill neutral matter.

    ?*Q: How many ——— ————— does it take to make plasma?
    A: Fishfingers.

  • Anaconda

    Crumb,

    You should relax.

    From Physorg.com:

    “These images have revolutionized what we thought we knew for the past 50 years; the sun travels through the galaxy not like a comet but more like a big, round bubble,” said Stamatios Krimigis of the Applied Physics Lab, in Laurel, Md., principal investigator for Cassini’s Magnetospheric Imaging Instrument which carries the Ion and Neutral Camera. “It’s amazing how a single new observation can change an entire concept that most scientists had taken as true for nearly fifty years.”

    To highlight:

    “It’s amazing how a single new observation can change an entire concept that most scientists had taken as true for nearly fifty years.”

    http://www.physorg.com/news174908954.html

    Obviously, this quote doesn’t apply to the beautiful image profiled in this quote.

    But it is something to think about…

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    @Anaconda

    Cherry-picking totally irrelevant quotes to other unrelated topics
    Is certainly “something to think about…”

    I mean, what has the heliopause got anything to do with the nebula NGC 6888. NOTHING!

    All it shows is you have any idea about science and all you are doing is spreading your twisted and unsupported propaganda!

    It is clear you don’t have a clue about what you are talking about!

  • Anaconda

    Actually, it’s pretty basic: Accepted astromomical ideas can be wrong.

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    Actually, it’s pretty basic:

    Accepted astronomical ideas can be wrong.…and the answer in nearly all cases, is that EU and plasma whatever is totally irrelevant.

    Yet diverting from the topic but your usual predictable methods of deceptions, doesn’t change the fact that you have little idea what you are talking about. Posturing is one thing, Knowing what you talking about is another just so lame and pathetic..

  • http://www.wro.org Tammy Plotner

    Hon. Salacious B. Crumb – aka “ariane” – or should we just refer to you as mr. james?

    again, would you be so willing to comment so strongly if it were your story, your website or your scientific opinions on the line? are you willing to write Christina Cappa and her fellow researchers to tell her that you believe her work is wrong because she referred to the H I ring in her quote and the automatic link system of the website assigned it to M57 when she did not? if you did “nothing of the sort” when it came to using swear words or taking personal cuts at people, then why repeat your posting with comments edited out? do you really think so highly of yourself and your opinions that you actually save copies in case you need to re-post it?

    actually, one of the reasons i contribute to UT is because freedom of opinion is permitted here – not spammed out by by those who seem to have little to do but frequent astronomy forums to feed their ego. obviously i’ve done a pretty good job with the article if it called you in to do further research and re-write what the article already expressed. perhaps you’d do well to speak with some of the world’s foremost astronomical imagers? i’m sure they’d be interested in contributing to your pages and your write-ups. why… you could even post it on the forums you frequent! i’m sure we’d all love to comment…

    ivanman? giggle… i shall probably live to regret these words as well – even if coffee is the poison of choice this morning.

    of course, considering we’re all late night “vampyres” perhaps a cup of plasma would be better?

    oh, wait… i might see nebula floating around in there when the cream swirls. you know how us nutz are! next thing you know, we’ll be spilling salt and thinking about how much it looks like NGC 7789… or how the freckles on our grandkid’s noses look like constellations… heck, we might even start trying to revive old theories to give them new relevance… or study something we want to understand better and comment on it because the internet gives us the freedom to do so…

    or maybe when we see something we don’t agree with, we just go have a beer and go look at the stuff we talk about instead of wasting our time arguing.

    ;)

    Blondie ‘Forgive and Forget’ – No Exit (2004)

  • Lawrence B. Crowell

    Tammy Plotner: I can sympathize with SBCrumb. I don’t see much point in chasing after plasma universe people., but I understand the sentiment. I know these guys are out there and they haunt various physics and astronomy blogs and discussions. They also do what I call “shave the point and repeat.” They will persist in an endless discussion that seeks to try to find or pretend to find holes in established understanding of things. This is seen in the creationist’s argument over “missing links.” Then once the argument fizzles out they repeat the argument at a later time.

    As a rule pseudoscientific arguments are easily shot down, but they are like ducks in a shooting gallery, the dang things pop back up. So this sort of thing is highly annoying. You can permit this here or not at the risk of inviting greater piles of nonsense. The plasma universe thesis that all aspects of the universe are explained by plasma physics is simply wrong. Of course this touches on a funny area, for plasmas are a real aspect of physics and astronomy.

    LC

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    Tammy

    again, would you be so willing to comment so strongly if it were your story, your website or your scientific opinions on the line?

    My comments have never criticised you storyline at all. My problem is some claiming that the causes of the filaments are
    primarily by magnetic fields as stated by Anaconda. This is not factually true.

    are you willing to write Christina Cappa and her fellow researchers to tell her that you believe her work is wrong because she referred to the H I ring in her quote and the automatic link system of the website assigned it to M57 when she did not?

    The main paper you refer which isn’t linked. The quotes I have assume you have taken is from Cappa, Cristina Elisabet., et.al., The Interaction of NGC 6888 and HD 192163 With the Surrounding Interstellar Medium.., AJ., 112, 1104 (1996)

    Really. How am I supposed to know “ring nebula” is an “automatic link system of the website”? Why would I want to write to Argentinean Ms. Cappa at all? (besides I don’t speak or write Spanish) By not correcting this simple note certainly is confusing, as obviously this object is not a planetary nebula!
    (Even if it did, these bubble HI nebulae are “25 by 18 light years,”…The true Ring Nebula is about light-year or so) So why wasn’t it clarified after it was pointed out?

    if you did “nothing of the sort” when it came to using swear words or taking personal cuts at people, then why repeat your posting with comments edited out? do you really think so highly of yourself and your opinions that you actually save copies in case you need to re-post it?

    My use “jack***” is not a swear word, at least as far as I know, as all it means “a stupid person.” (I’ve used it in Universe Today, without any complaint for at least year. Then why now?)

    You said;

    “DO NOT use swear words on anything posted to do with my work or the work of those whom i support.”

    As far as I’m concerned, have not used swear words on this site!!

    As to repeating post with comments edited out, I did so because I was attempting to remove the presumed offence. I keep copies of my posts that my business, but if you want to know, it is because there was a time when you would write a whole lot of text, then find the “Universe Today” site had lost all the text in the browser stating “Awaiting Moderation”. Regular posters found it frustrating to find their comment vaporise (and it wasn’t just me.)

    As to “or taking personal cuts at people”, The central tenet of my argument is NOT about your article, per se. My point here is that Anaconda believes that the structure of the nebulosity is by magnetic fields and that everything we see is is due solely to plasma. (A game he has been at for months and months. I.e. Read all the black comments going back on this site.) This is simply view is not correct, as others have also stated. You give him the best of your knowledge, then he turn on you, basically saying exactly the same things and “throwing it in your face.” He then calls everyone who blogs of this UT site “pigs”, then, admits he is seeking recruits, those who don’t know better – under the general umbrella of Thunderbolts.group, who have a known agenda. Then you state there is “freedom of opinion” here!

    My repost of the my post you deleted of October 18th, 2009 at 6:11 pm, clearly states about the EU history of this individual.

    As for showing kindness and support for some your previous articles (I.e. The Jewel Box, etc.), well you certainly have made sure you have lost all my respect.

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    Apologies for the end section in the last post all being in “bold”. Must have missed a

    also

    I said; “(A game he has been at for months and months. I.e. Read all the black comments going back on this site.)”

    should read; “(A game he has been at for months and months. I.e. Read all the black HOLE comments going back on this site.

  • http://www.wro.org Tammy Plotner

    it’s the mother bear in me. i tend to defend when i feel like someone has done nothing wrong to receive getting verbally battered. anaconda’s original statement, in my opinion, did not warrant the torrent that came after it.

    if this person has a reputation for posting theories where they do not belong, then they have not done so on my dime, therefore i cannot judge them. however, in deference to everyone – i read the linkage…. and congratulations to nancy for posting and never looking back. (or at least being able to exhibit a certain amount of self-control not to respond – a talent i sometimes lack. ;) )

    what i saw were links to creditable work by researchers and not an individual. while these theories may or may not apply, i found them entertaining, enlightening and thought-provoking… what i believed to be the spirit of commenting to be in the first place. then a whole lot of what occurred after that as posted by a certain individual was tantamount to poking your finger in someone’s eye, eh?

    but we’re going off topic…

    if someone’s pet theory is so very wrong in someone’s opinion, they shouldn’t stand on their keyboard and call them names. don’t belabor a response with repetitive cut and pastes of past comments. cite a case, back it up with research documents and let it stand on its own merit. if they are chasing shadows, they’ll eventually come to the point where there is either not enough light to cause one – or the light is coming from so many directions that there isn’t.

    displaying such vehemence towards someone’s opinion quite honestly made me look more closely at what they had to say – and thus my own comments. it made me research, and wonder why one who would work so hard to build an astronomy reputation for themselves would shoot their self in the foot like that. of course, different genders and different cultures behave differently…

    but if one could just take that awesome amount of energy that was channeled into spite and turn it towards creative research and response? wow… can you imagine what we all could have collectively learned?

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    @ Tammy,
    “Anaconda’s original statement, in my opinion, did not warrant the torrent that came after it.”

    May be I jumped the gun, but after a few months of silence, I’d had hoped this individual had disappeared for good. All I was doing was short-circuiting the usual torrent that I knew was to come!

    Really, my point was exact on target. Sadly, for experience, killing the message just doesn’t seem to work anymore.

    Q. How do you talk science sensibly, when you have thrown in front of you pseudo-science at every moment, especially when you know it is aimed to decieve?

    For example, so how do you deal with individuals who actually target kid’s with sites with plasma cosmology to spread their crazy notions ?;
    I.e. Kids.Net.Au
    (just type “plasma cosmology” in the search engine.)

    Here they state “plasma cosmology is an alternative to the Big Bang.”

    Love you optimism, but sorry, in the end, this is really not an ideal world.

  • http://www.wro.org Tammy Plotner

    cool! let’s start this with a smile, then… :D

    do you happen to remember the “mirror man”? it was some very strange site that would get linked every so often to some really wild stuff that didn’t really have anything to do with astronomy at all. there was another fellow, too, that used to take posts as an opportunity to shred what you had to say about observing and point back to his own weblog to drive his own ratings up. (man, he used to tick me off! very seldom am i capable of actually having genuine emotion towards a written comment, because i spend 14 hours a day with doing words – but he got to me!) anyhow, what happened was we generally ignored them, didn’t follow their leads and they went away. just like shadows…

    in all honesty, i have very little free time to follow forums – nor engage in banter. (even as lively as it may sometimes make a monday morning!) if i do, i want it to be serious, from serious-minded individuals who are willing to put their real name and reputation on the line. this is why i select images from Northern Galactic and Southern Galactic… and make any links open in a new window because it is unkind to Universe Today to take someone off site.

    i try to keep a very open mind towards follow up comments, because i am very human and very capable of mis-reading a statement (or the spirit in which it was intended) – just as i am equally capable of getting excited about something new i’ve read and studied and mis-stating a fact… and this is why i try to put myself in another’s place when i read.

    heck, i know it’s not an ideal world. i remember reading comments on “earth hour” – such an innocent and peaceful thing! – that i could honestly not believe that people would write. other times i read a posting or thank you that really makes my day and i walk away when it’s time to go out and observe and feel like it’s all worthwhile… i’ve managed to touch someone somewhere. and i gotta’ hand it to someone who apparently has gigantic spheres of magnetic carbon, eh?

    it’s all in a day’s work – and we’ve made people think!!

  • Hon. Salacious B. Crumb

    I’m already somewhere else…

  • niceandfair

    Maybe under a rock?

  • DrFlimmer

    I don’t want to intrude, but I need to say something.

    First of all, I understand perfectly, Tammy, that you are probably bewildered about what’s going on here.
    But, although I do not like MSBC’s methods, he has a point.
    I know Anaconda since the beginning of January this year. We first met at Bad Astronomy and there were 3 really long discussions. He intruduced himself as an “interested reader” and asked some questions, which I and others (like Ivan3man) tried to answer. But as longer as those discussions went on, it became more and more obvious that he wasn’t interested in our answers, but just to show “an alternative”.
    I think, in the end, he was banned from BA, at least, he didn’t show up anymore (just like OilIsMastery – who remembers him?). I think it was Ivan3man who guided our attention to UT (for which I am very thankful, not because the discussions with Anaconda went on here, but because the stories and topics are always very interesting and informative!), where Anaconda was also at work with his nonsense.
    And sorry for saying it so directly: It is nonsense. And he is also dishonest in his words – sometimes he claims this and sometimes that, even though it could contradict himself (what it did from time to time, as can be seen in several older threads), but only to attack “mainstream science” that is using just the “gravity-only model” (to use his words).
    Even though I made some mistakes in the beginning (like my statement that there shouldn’t be any currents in space, which is obviously wrong), I always (and almost still) try to counter him with physical arguments and I try not to be offended (which would result in name calling or something like that).

    You see, during the first discussions with Anaconda, I even consulted some lecturers and professors of my university, in order to check my arguments (which, sadly, didn’t stop me from making that mistake mentioned above). But everytime I asked someone and told him/her about what was going on, they told me something like that:

    “It is interesting in the beginning to debate with such people, but it begins to annoy rather soon.”

    And they all are right.

    This is the reason for all the rattling here. I just had the feeling that I should explain it in some detail. I don’t know if it was necessary, it just felt so.

  • http://www.wro.org Tammy Plotner

    thank you, dr. flimmer. i do appreciate your kind words and explanation. time and work limitations make it impossible for me to follow every thread, so i might not always know of another’s posting reputation. (and i do frequent BA, because the discussions and content there are most enlightening – even if i don’t speak.)

    sadly enough, all i really know is from forums what i’ve personally experienced with posters – and i don’t like to see obviously intelligent and well-learned people end up looking like something they are not. in teaching astronomy, it often falls upon me to have to diplomatically listen to everything from crackpot theories to genuine, deep questions… and you must approach them all with kindness, patience and answer to the best of your knowledge to be effective. sometimes i teach – and sometimes i learn – sometimes i get burnt… but it’s all good.

    oddy enough, i also become quite fond of certain members as well. over the last, what? five years? i’ve conversed with many on a personal level when time permits – finding them to be delightful and insightful – and a true pleasure to meet. others? like you said… it doesn’t take very long until i get tired of it. either my written communication skills fail to get across the point i’m trying to make, or they simply don’t want to hear it.

    in the long run, it’s all about presenting either a thought provoking picture, a review of a product i’ve been allowed to use (or abuse), and trying my best to encourage folks to actually observe. i have no wish to offend anyone, because i’ve found i love astronomy people the world over. yet, somehow i manage to put my big foot in my mouth at times!

    so i thank you for your kindness and apologize to UT readers for what was meant to delight and entertain turning into something stressful.

  • IVAN3MAN

    DrFlimmer:

    I think it was Ivan3man who guided our attention to UT (for which I am very thankful…)

    Yeah, it was me, and you’re most welcome! :-)

    @ Tammy,

    May I refer you to this Wikipedia article on the common characteristics of cranks, of which this extract describes Anaconda, and others like him, to a tee:

    1. Cranks overestimate their own knowledge and ability, and underestimate that of acknowledged experts;
    2. Cranks insist that their alleged discoveries are urgently important;
    3. Cranks rarely, if ever, acknowledge any error, no matter how trivial;
    4. Cranks love to talk about their own beliefs, often in inappropriate social situations, but they tend to be bad listeners, and often appear to be uninterested in anyone else’s experience or opinions.

    Some cranks exhibit a lack of academic achievement, in which case they typically assert that academic training in the subject of their crank belief is not only unnecessary for discovering “THE TRUTH™”, but actively harmful because they believe it ‘poisons’ the minds by teaching falsehoods. Others greatly exaggerate their personal achievements, and may insist that some alleged achievement in some entirely unrelated area of human endeavor implies that their cranky opinion should be taken seriously.

    Some cranks claim vast knowledge of any relevant literature, while others claim that familiarity with previous work is entirely unnecessary; regardless, cranks inevitably reveal that whether or not they believe themselves to be knowledgeable concerning relevant matters of fact, mainstream opinion, or previous work, they are not in fact well-informed concerning the topic of their belief.

    In addition, many cranks:

    1. Seriously misunderstand the mainstream opinion to which they believe that they are objecting;
    2. Stress that they have been working out their ideas for many decades, and claim that this fact alone entails that their belief cannot be dismissed as resting upon some simple error;
    3. Compare themselves with Galileo or Copernicus, implying that the mere unpopularity of some belief is in itself evidence of plausibility;
    4. Claim that their ideas are being suppressed by secret intelligence organizations, mainstream science, powerful business interests, or other groups which, they allege, are terrified by the possibility of their allegedly revolutionary insights becoming widely known;
    5. Appear to regard themselves as persons of unique historical importance.

    Cranks who contradict some mainstream opinion in some highly technical field, such as mathematics or physics, almost always:

    1.Exhibit a marked lack of technical ability;
    2. Misunderstand or fail to use standard notation and terminology;
    3. Ignore fine distinctions which are essential to correctly understanding mainstream belief.

    That’s certainly the case with Anaconda, he often dismisses modern mathematics as “a priori”! :roll:

    That is, cranks tend to ignore any previous insights which have been proven by experience to facilitate discussion and analysis of the topic of their cranky claims; indeed, they often assert that these innovations obscure rather than clarify the situation.

    In addition, cranky scientific ‘theories’ do not in fact qualify as theories as this term is commonly understood within science. For example, crank ‘theories’ in physics typically fail to result in testable predictions, which makes them unfalsifiable and hence unscientific.

    Perhaps surprisingly, many cranks may appear quite normal when they are not passionately expounding their cranky belief, and they may even be successful in careers unrelated to their cranky belief. Others can (charitably) be characterized as underachievers in all walks of life.

    Tammy, please note that last paragraph, that is why first impressions (contrary to popular belief) do not count.

  • ND

    Tammy Plotner,

    If you’re not familiar with Anaconda and some of his friends who on occasion post to UT, you’re in for a fun ride.

    Some of us have been debating, arguing, pointing out his misconceptions of scientific concepts for months. He has been on the attack on what he thinks is mainstream astronomy and has been caught being dishonest and been called on it. About half of his words involve rhetoric. Some of us have unfortunately developed a knee-jerk reaction to him.

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