January 19th, 2009
Citizen Science: Unmannedspaceflight.com
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Citizen Science: Unmannedspaceflight.com | Universe Today
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January 19th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Nice work, congrats! Just a pity the site does not have some kind of user friendly gallery. Browsing for external links of images in the forum is little bit painful, and forcing you to spend a lot of time looking through posts and links that you may have only little interest for if image processing is not your hobby, but you rather just want to see the results..
January 19th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
An excellent article Nancy. I think I'll pop over and check 'em out…
January 19th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Policy: Dispassion in the use of thinking is not natural. It requires discipline instead. And discipline necessitates for rules.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
With all the computer power and gigabytes of disk space at the disposal of anyone with a few dollars or pounds to burn, plus the information load of the Internet, it must be awfully tempting to anyone to feel like they are really there conducting and helping out with a space mission.
But the important difference between an amateur and a professional is that the latter has spent years of intense training, discipline, and school to be where they are now. That still matters the most no matter how powerful someone's home computer may be.
By all means, the amateurs should play with their Mars images all they want – they might get lucky and find something after all, as the pros are often very busy doing the major work and can't catch everything.
But at the end of the day, don't forget there is a reason the professionals are who they are – they are the ones who made it possible for the armchair astronauts to get those images in the first place.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Can anyone say "Google Mars"?
January 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Oops, I didnt realise that they already have Google Mars, even though it has the same are over and over.
How about a Google Europa. Or a Google Titan.
January 20th, 2009 at 2:19 am
Max,
I don't think the motivation of anyone at unmannedspaceflight.com is to discover something that the Pros might have missed (certainly not me anyway). I process the image data purely to see the stunning scenes that the rovers are seeing and to enjoy the ride and spirit of exploration.
The only way we are 'helping out' the mission is with added outreach.
January 20th, 2009 at 3:31 am
I agree with Astrofriend and I' d like to add that it is a very good thought too.
For example, I' m an architect engineer.. After 20 years of strictly proffesional life, I decided to re -open books and read about sciences that I like, astronomy and economics.
I cearched the catalogues of relative books that I could find on theses subjects and I started to buy them little by little.
Next month I'll buy my last 12. In total, are about 750 new books that I'm thinking to read next years.
As I' m always working, I can't have a forum as the one that you describe here, but I can share what I' m learning and I think that it will be usuful to the others.
In this sense, inernet gives great possibilities of expression, and expression make people happy
January 20th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Please ignore Max's comment – to those who have read the article, it was pretty obvious that the purpose of the website is not to compete with the scientists, but rather using the raw data for creating appealing realistic images of other worlds.
On the other hand I see that some of the people participating are scientists too, and they do not miss the necessary training for correct scietific work. So for example James Canvin, who commented above, was mentioned in the article as being scientist in the weather forecasting research. He and others from the community may have experience in scientific fields that the researchers at NASA (or other space agencies) do not necessarily have, and may be willing to process the images in such way that they can study them easier. So for example James, although he admits doing it for the esthetic purpose, he could process the images to see better weather patterns, or clouds on Mars, and could possibly come out with interesting findings in fields that the original team does not even search in. However, already creating the appealing images in they way they do is already a great job, and certainly helping the scientists too – as written in the article, they are in need of such images, but do not have the necessary know-how, tools, and experience for creating them.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Hey trux – I never said they were trying to compete with NASA or anything like that (amazing how amateurs never really learn to filter their thoughts before spewing them out).
I am saying that while modern technology lets the amateurs get to pretend they are at Mission Control driving the rovers around, it is the pros who did all the real work who made it possible for them to play spaceman in the first place – got it?
If the Web did not exist, amateurs like Ellison and others would not be making out like they are part of JPL.
These amateurs remind me of Paris Hilton, who is famous mainly for being famous and how the media made them that way. Same thing with the Internet and how every Joe Sixpack can grab some space data – gotten by professionals in the first place – and think they are NASA engineers.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Trux, it is true. Shapes can reveal many things about structures.
Think that when I red for the black holes for the first time in Hawking's book where he says that the process is like the motion of the water in the sink, I thought immediately – becouse shapes are familiar to me – that the galaxies have the same shape.
A year later, with the Chandra findings on M87 – if I remember well – about the properties of the central black hole, that is a kind of heart for it, I thought it again.
For the moment I have the impression that black holes are the ' mothers " of the universe, maby one day I' ll read something about it.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Wow, Max, I don't think I've ever actually seen someone grab the wrong end of the stick with both hands *and* both feet at the same time, that's quite a feat!
Let me assure you – even though it's very, very clear in the article – that no-one at UMSF "pretends" they're anything they're not, or imagines for a moment they're "driving" a rover or steering Cassini or whatever. Nor does anyone on UMSF kid themselves they're "part of JPL". I wish! No, we're basically just space enthusiasts / geeks messing about and having fun with pictures that are available for anyone and everyone to do whatever the heck they want with. You could do the exact same thing if you wanted to, it's no big deal.
As for trying to steal the thunder of the guys at JPL, or ignoring their hard work, did you actually read the piece? We – along with many other people on other forums, and countless individuals just pottering away on their own – do this with the FULL support, approval and encouragement of Steve Squyres, Jim Bell and other people on the MER team; that's why they were so keen to post raw images online as quickly as possible, they WANT people to take their pictures and have fun with them.
Time+effort+enthusiasm = pretty pictures, simple really.
Give it a go yourself, you might enjoy it. If you don't want to, then fine, but don't rain on the parades of people who get a lot of enjoyment out of creating things that many, many other people online – including the space scientists themselves – find useful and attractive.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Stu, James, and others from UMSF, please ignore Max's comments. After reading couple of his posts under diverse articles here, I suspect he is just a frustrated troll who feels the need to ventilate his negative feelings somehow. Be aware that most others UT readers read the article properly, and understand why you are processing the pictures, and are thankful for it!
January 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Man, you two need to get a room.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I guess that the policy of the UMSF website enforces a behaviour among the users that would never allow such a discussion as on can look at here between Mr. Payne and "trux".
January 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Dollhopf – They're a bunch of amateurs who are afraid of dealing with real experts and being exposed for the amateurs that they are.
Plus this is their moment in the artificial spotlight, which to them is the equivalent of being professional spacemen.
The big problem is, the regular public can't and doesn't know the difference so their amateur act not only takes away from the true pros, but only confuses the public about what is real science and not.
Their is no dissention allowed in that personality cult.
January 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Dear Mr. Payne,
one should distinguish amateurs from trolls. Inestimable social benefits arise from amateurs. For example, think of sport instead of science.
Also an AMATEUR can nevertheless be also an EXPERT. But to be a PROFESSIONAL one needs to make a living from something.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
I apologize for adding oil to the flame. I retract the frustrated troll and apologize for it. The reason for it was that in the last days I noticed several rather negative comments of Mr. Payne, similar to his posts here, so I overreacted in the defense of the UMSF folk. It may have been better simply ignoring it.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:10 am
Apology accepted, trux, so long as you recognize that umsf acts more anti-science than even they seem to realize.
Views which go against the rulers of that electronic compound are put down and censored regularly. They also ban anyone who dares to even complain about them. They even send out drones to enforce their policies on other sites, as we see here. That isn't science, it is the behavior of a cult.
Having different views, even negative ones, is not a bad thing. It is called discussion and growth. Any group which cannot handle being disagreed with is not a scientific or even a rational organization. They are not to be taken seriously.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:21 am
"They even send out drones to enforce their policies on other sites, as we see here."
Dear Mr. Payne,
if possible would you please be so kind to specify this a little bit more, so that I maybe might also see what "we see here" already?
Thank you in advance!
January 21st, 2009 at 8:47 am
Dollhopf, reread the posts in this thread and you will see very quickly who is a member of the umsf cult.
Or go to the electronic fortress itself and try posting your thoughts on, say, Martian life as a possible source for the recent discovery of methane on that planet. Even NASA has been touting that as a possibility.
However, It won't matter how many references you bring to back up your ideas or how well and politely you present them. It won't even matter if you are an expert – in fact that may work against you even more if you are if you are not already buddies with those in charge. Your post will be deleted and if you dare to complain, you will be banned.
At best you may get a comment that there are other places to post such things, which in the leadership's snotty attitude means "lesser" Web sites and blogs. They even have put Universe Today in that category, where they banish what they consider to be "freaks" to.
I don't know about you, but I sure do not trust any group that does not allow differing points of view.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:22 am
In contrary, dear Max Payne, I believe that the work of UMSF is a great asset both for the science community, as well as for the public. I retracted my invectives not because I changed my mind on your comments or your person, but because I realized this is not the best place for offensive talk. I prefer leaving you alone on this level of dialogue.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:39 am
Then you didn't get a thing I said and I am sorry you will remain deluded by that cult.
Though I do recognize it is hard for the untrained to differentiate real science done by true professional from being in a religion of wannabe space geeks who are using the Internet as their means of fame and glory, deluding a public that cannot tell the difference between pros and amateurs.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Mr. Payne,
I was at the "electronic fortress" and studied their Forum Guidelines. Considering that, I must say that they are highly task-oriented.
I do respect the freedom of opinion and both private property and domestic authority. If anybody comes to your house and pesters you with his ideas having his foot in your door, then the law gives you the right to act in self-defense.
Did you really read their Forum Guidelines – the rules of the house – before you started posting there? I understand now that you clearly disregarded them. They told you that they are not interessted in what you were doing there. You could already have known that from their Forum Guidelines. And now you are sullen. But that hat is not righteous.
Regards.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Oh Lord, the cult has gotten another one.
Of course umsf is "highly task-oriented" – so were the Nazis and the Catholics.
The one saving grace is that umsf has become so "specialized" they now verge on being utterly boring. I for one can only get excited about what sand dune the Mars rovers are sitting on now so many times, which turns out to be once.
The remaining members of the cult will soon discover that most people could not care less about every nut and bolt of the martian machines they worship and will disappear.
Let the cult disappear into its own little virtual pocket so that the professional scientists can carry on with the real work.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pm
UMSF compared to the Nazis? Seriously mate, you need to get a grip. You're coming across as just bitter and frustrated now, it's actually getting quite embarrassing. It's pretty obvious to everyone now that at some point you actually wanted to be a member of UMSF, registered, said something that doesn't meet the guidelines – which 99.99999% of everyone else has no problem with – and had a falling out with the Forum, and now you're bitter about it. It was funny at first but comparing people to Nazis, well, surely that must have over-stepped some line here?
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:28 am
Bitter and frustrated does not equal my being wrong, or that there won't be to price to pay for your cult's attitude and corruption of real science.
I am a very patient and watchful fellow.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:40 am
No, you're a troll. Get back under your bridge.
Anyone else who would like to become part of a Forum that welcomes intelligent and enthusiastic debate, then come on over to UMSF. Anyone else who would like to see – and learn how to make – original images out of NASA's raw images, with the full and vocal approval of the very scientists who take them, you'll be very welcome at UMSF. Anyone else who wants to be able to communicate directly with some of the amazing men and women who actually design, build and operate the amazing, fragile metal butterflies that explore the planets of the solar system for all mankind, then you'd be made very welcome at UMSF.
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 am
You're just sorry you can't censor me like you have done to so many others who dared to speak against you and the rest of the cult leaders.
Some day the full truth about umsf will come out and I will be first in line to "greet" you.
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:59 am
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Based on this last comment, (which has been deleted) I'm going to shut down the comments on this story.