MilankovitchCycles

Astronomy

An Astronomical Perspective on Climate Change

30 Nov , 2009 by

Ice cores and deep sea bed cores provide the best available record of changes in global temperature and CO2 content of the atmosphere going back 800,000 years. The data shows a clear periodicity in global temperatures which is thought to be linked to the Milankovitch cycle.

Back in 1920, Milutin Milankovitch, a Serbian mathematician, proposed that fine changes in Earth’s orbit around the Sun could explain an approximately 100,000 year cycle in glaciation seen from geological evidence. The tilt of the Earth’s axis swings slightly over a 41,000 year cycle – the eccentricity of Earth’s orbit moves from almost circular to more elliptical and back again over a 413,000 year cycle – and overlaying that you have not only the precession of the equinoxes, which is an inherent wobble in the Earth’s axial spin over a 26,000 year cycle, but also a precession of the whole of Earth’s orbit over a 23,000 year cycle.

Ice core data does show a rough concordance between glaciation and the synchronicity of these orbital cycles. Even though there’s no significant change in the mean amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth over the period of its annual orbit – the orbital changes can lead to increased polar shadowing and cooling.

Once ice does start advancing from the poles, a positive feedback loop can develop – since more ice increases the albedo of Earth’s surface and reflects more of the Sun’s heat back into space, thus reducing mean global temperatures.

ice coreIt’s thought that what limits the ice advancing is increasing CO2 in the atmosphere – which can be measured from trapped bubbles of air in the ice cores. More ice formation leads to less exposed land area for photosynthesis and silicate rock weathering to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. So the more ice that’s formed, the more CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere – which causes mean global temperatures to rise, which limits ongoing ice formation.

Of course the opposite is true in an ice-melting phase. Ice melting also follows a positive feedback loop since less ice means less albedo, meaning less solar radiation is reflected back into space and mean global temperatures rise. But again, CO2 becomes the limiting factor. With more exposed land, more CO2 is drawn from the atmosphere by photosynthesizing forests and rock weathering. A consequent drop in atmospheric CO2 cools the planet and hence limits ongoing ice melting.

But there lies the rub. We are in an ice-melting phase of the Milankovitch cycle now, where the Earth’s orbit is closer to circular and the Earth’s tilt is closer to perpendicular. But CO2 levels aren’t declining – partly because we’ve chopped a lot of trees and forests down, but mostly because of anthropogenic CO2 production. Without the limiting factor of declining CO2 we’ve seen in previous Milankovitch cycles, presumably the ice is just going to keep on melting as the albedo of the Earth surface declines.

Projected changes in coastlines with 170 metre sea level riseSo you might want to rethink that next coastal real estate purchase – or hope for the best from Copenhagen.

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By  -      
Steve Nerlich is a very amateur Australian astronomer, publisher of the Cheap Astronomy website and the weekly Cheap Astronomy Podcasts and one of the team of volunteer explainers at Canberra Deep Space Communications Complex - part of NASA's Deep Space Network.



133 Responses

  1. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    Anthropic induced global warming is not likely to set up a 170 meter sea level rise. In fact from a climate history perspective it is likely to be a transient spike, where the future will see much the same Milankovitch cycling. The problem we are setting up is that ecosystems may for a couple of thousand years face radical climate shifts and collapse. The problem we are setting up is potentially the next great extinction of life. Our induced global warming will doubtless play a role here, as with our other activities that are reducing the biological capacity of the planet.

    LC

  2. Olaf says:

    What is the explanation that Earths orbit becomes circular and eleptical? The influences of Jupiter and other planets?

  3. BlueAmberol says:

    The biological capacity of our planet is being challenged by our overpopulation. No astronomical function has anything to do with that.

  4. Andrew says:

    “Anthropic induced global warming is not likely to set up a 170 meter sea level rise.”

    True, but why bring this up? The article doesn’t mention sea level changes at all.

  5. Olaf says:

    @BlueAmberol
    This article talks about astronomical induced climate change like ice ages. This has no relationship with the global warming we experience now because this one is purely human induced.

  6. bosely says:

    @Andrew

    The article doesn’t mention a 170 meter sea level change but the accompanying final graphic does.

  7. IVAN3MAN says:

    170 metre sea level rise?! As Sean Connery would say: “That musht be shome mishtake?”

    According to the Wikipedia article on Sea Level:

    If small glaciers and polar ice caps on the margins of Greenland and the Antarctic Peninsula melt, the projected rise in sea level will be around 0.5 m. Melting of the Greenland ice sheet would produce 7.2 m of sea-level rise, and melting of the Antarctic ice sheet would produce 61.1 m of sea level rise. The collapse of the grounded interior reservoir of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet would raise sea level by 5-6 m.

    So, by those figures, the sea level rise would be ~74 metres.

  8. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    The highest order perturbation term is on eccentricity and semi-major axis of an orbit. These changes are due to perturbations from other planets, primarily Jupiter.

    LC

  9. Marmot says:

    The meta-cause of most environmental destruction is over-population. Humans apparently have a very limited ability to extrapolate from the specific to the general in this regard since I haven’t heard about ZPG in 25 years! Why is population a sacred cow? Are we as yet so near the monkey that we cannot think beyond the sexy thing?

  10. I acknowledge the sea level graphic is extreme – and a bit tongue-in-cheek on my part. I understand the IPCC estimated a sea-level rise of between 18 centimetres and 59 cm by 2100 – though other commentators have suggested the rise could exceed 1 metre. I’d be happy if all the predictions are wrong because we act quickly. Thanks for reading.

  11. 2ru_press says:

    ONE WORD…

    CLIMATE GATE..

    Take “Climategate” at Penn State. That’s what people are calling the controversy surrounding leaked E-mails among climate change researchers that climate change opponents say expose the researchers’ falsification of data. One Penn State professor is involved in the scandal.

    The Penn State administration plans to investigate Climategate and determine if it needs to take further action, the Daily Collegian reports. A little more than a week ago, E-mails exchanged among an English university’s climate change researchers were illegally obtained from a server and posted online, the report says.

    Climate change opponents say the E-mails indicate that climate change researchers—including Penn State Prof. Michael Mann—exaggerated or fabricated global warming data. And, according to the report, some E-mails indicate that the director of the research unit in question may have contacted researchers and asked them to “delete certain E-mails.”

  12. 2ru_press says:

    Penn State officials, who will not discuss the matter, are investigating the controversy. If anything requires further inspection, the school will handle it, a spokesman tells the Daily Collegian. A panel will read every E-mail leaked and determine if climate change critics have any ground for their accusations, the report says.

    “I would be disappointed if the university wasn’t doing all [it] can to get as much information as possible” about the controversy, Mann tells the Daily Collegian.

  13. steinauf says:

    Really not trying to be nitpicky; but isn’t it well known that the CO2 chart lags the temperature chart by about 800 years? Doesn’t this turn the causal hypothisis on it’s head? Yes, CO2 and temperature could be interdependent, but can CO2 by the lynchpin when it’s a lagging indicator?

    @IVAN3MAN
    Your figure on sea level rise requires the application of the principle of superposition, which requires linearity. I’ve seen too many people throughout this debate confuse and ignore basic principles such as this. Models can be linear, but there is no such thing as a linear system in reality; and climate is anything but.

  14. Dark Gnat says:

    Looks like the current warming period is right on time.

  15. jackcroww says:

    Congratulations. Your lame and heavy-handed Climate Scientology scare tactics in this article have convinced me to never visit UniverseToday.com again and to unsubscribe from the RSS feed.

  16. IVAN3MAN says:

    @ steinauf,

    I never stated that the climate follows linear models, and I realize that, in the real world, it is subject to the chaos theory — the “butterfly effect”. I merely pointed out, above, what would be, in the worst-case scenario, the maximum sea-level rise according to those figures from Wikipedia.

  17. IVAN3MAN says:

    jackcroww:

    Congratulations. Your lame and heavy-handed Climate Scientology scare tactics in this article have convinced me to never visit UniverseToday.com again and to unsubscribe from the RSS feed.

    I wish “Anaconda” would do likewise!

  18. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    It is curious that there are two scientific areas which really get people angry: Evolution and climatology. Why? because they upset preconceptions about things held by people with conservative minds.

    LC

  19. RUF says:

    The cat is finally out of the bag with the revelation of Global Warming Hoaxers fudging data to fit their religious belief in man-made warming. Apparently, there is no warming — man-made or not. Just fraudulent propaganda.

    Too bad the news of the hoaxers is not being widely reported. (Guess they’re too afraid that might constitute “peer-review.”)

  20. RUF says:

    and earlier post, and Wikipedia says:

    “So, by those figures, the sea level rise would be ~74 metres.”

    So what — that’s only an inch or two, right?

  21. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    RUF said;

    “…and earlier post, and Wikipedia says:
    “So, by those figures, the sea level rise would be ~74 metres.”
    So what — that’s only an inch or two, right?”

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

    “Give ’em an inch and they’ll a mile” – literally, eh? :{

  22. Mike Jackson says:

    “Why? because they upset preconceptions about things held by
    people with conservative minds.”

    An honest observer would choke on this hypocrisy before it
    exited his mouth. For several days the world has been reading
    email exchanges between global warming “scientists” venting
    their anger (including fantasies of physical assault) toward
    scientists who dare to do what real scientists do- provide a
    second look at their results to see if they pass muster.

    Instead of supporting the scientific process they deliberately
    destroyed much of their original “unprocessed” raw data,
    while conspiring before our “lying eyes” to destroy more recent
    data and emails for which they anticipated Freedom of Information requests.
    To their greater shame they discussed their ongoing success in
    preventing publication of much of their critics’ work in peer reviewed
    literature while at the same time publicly denigrating their
    critics because they were not, you guessed it, published
    in peer reviewed literature.

    They discuss frustration with facts and data not matching their hoped for
    results and discuss ways to “hide the decline” instead of altering
    their conclusions to match physical reality.

    It takes a disciplined faith to overlook what has transpired
    in recent days regarding faux scientists like Phil Jones
    and his merry band of fraudsters and conclude that Global Warming
    critics are the ones with “preconceptions”.

    Readers at Universe Today have witnessed the Saul Alinsky
    style attacks on critics of Global Warming hysteria with
    Lawrence Crowley often leading the way with ad hominem attacks
    on critics in general. Now we know from the “hacked” material
    that he was simply engaging in the New Scientific Method.

  23. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Mike Jackson;

    “Victims of the almighty Sarlacc: His Excellency hopes that you will die honorably.”

    Yeah. Ok. Where is your proof here – and not the endless rhetoric of you last post, please.

  24. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Also what has this to do with the Milankovitch cycle ?

  25. Mike Jackson says:

    “Yeah. Ok. Where is your proof here”

    Heh. Good soldier. Keeping up with the News to Ignore program, eh?

    “Also what has this to do with the Milankovitch cycle ?”

    Nothing, why?

  26. Mike Jackson says:

    In the spirit of open-mindedness, can anyone postulate a theory as to why Universe Today hasn’t yet addressed the CRU revelations, giving its interest in GWT ?

    Boring? Distraction? Nobody in their right minds cares if leading GWT scientists are behaving badly? The evil denialists made them do it?

  27. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Mike Jackson said:

    “Yeah. Ok. Where is your proof here”
    Heh. Good soldier. Keeping up with the News to Ignore program, eh?

    No the proof of your accusations here, sunshine?

    “Also what has this to do with the Milankovitch cycle ?”
    Nothing, why?”

    Well the article title says “An Astronomical Perspective on Climate Change” What you have said here has very little to do with the astronomical climate change by natural processes? I.e. 1950 to 400,000 years ago?

  28. Mike Jackson says:

    “No the proof of your accusations here, sunshine?”

    Are you serious, buttercup? Are you actually unaware of the CRU scandal? I thought you were just feigning ignorance.

    ” What you have said here has very little to do with [the article title]”

    So what?? What is your point??

  29. star-grazer west coast says:

    Milankovitch cycle and ever increasing human population growth tells me trying to lower CO2 by expensive means will accomplice zelch. 3rd world countries will continue to cut down forests, and guess what, they have a right to do what they have to do to live and feed themselves!!!!. I admit the Earths’ temperature has risen since the end of LittleIceAge and where it goes, actually, NOBODY really knows!!!!. Western European countries are fortunate they have zero population growth, however, years of being highly taxed for ‘cradle to grave’ medical and social care has caught up with them, now there are not enough workers to support an aging population so they now import workers from 3rd world countries because the aging population DEMANDS and actually should get the care promised when they payed high taxes. The Milankovitch cycle tells me humans MUST change and WILL have to more to areas not affected by either the rising or lowering oceans. People, lets think about this, our shorelines and climate will change for better or worst and there is not much humans can do about it -but we can clean up the atmosphere and spend our money wisely for disasters that will hit regions instead of trying to believe we can keep the Earth the way it is.- we cannot keep our world shorelines the way it is 2009 forever!!!!!!!!

  30. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @ Mike Jackson

    “Are you actually unaware of the CRU scandal?”

    Clear you are not aware of it, because you cannot show any evidence that accusations about CRU is true. All you can do in rant and rave – out of control like like some rabid dog.

    Take your word for it – you got to be joking!

    It is not about climate change or the lack thereof. It is about stroking your own inflated ego.

    Your just another crazed biassed jackass, I’d recon.

    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”

  31. Mike Jackson says:

    “rabid dog… stroking your own inflated ego… crazed biassed jackass… absolute stupidity”
    (“rant and rave”, indeed)

    A student of Lawrence Crowell, I assume. My guess is he will NOT be demanding that your post be removed, as he did one of mine that contained no such ad hominems.

    Liberalism–A license to hate.

    And why the anger? Because Crumb wants to play dumb and demand that I post up dozens of emails that anyone with an honest interest in GWT has been reading for a week.

  32. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @ Mike Jackson
    I’m not under the influence of anyone, jackass. To be truthful it it YOU making the accusations and contentions here, and yet you lay no actual support for your position or opinion.
    I not know what you are on about, your intentions, nor even even why you are hitting out .
    Clearly, you foolishness here is coming all out guns blazing, posturing all wild claims possible, in a ridiculous attempt to swing people to you point of view.
    “Play dumb” is your accusation against me here, but the truth is you haven’t explained yourself.
    I make my opinions on the evidence, The evidence here is you have a just personal agenda – and you expect every bow down to it.
    You may be right, you may be wrong. Frankly, you look like a nitwit jackass shoving you agenda down everyone else throat! I’m frankly more sceptical of you, than the rights or wrongs climate change.

  33. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @ Mike Jackson said;

    “Why? because they upset preconceptions about things held by
    people with conservative minds.”

    So, according to you crap here, anyone who disagrees with you is “conservative” (a “liberal”) or what ever.

    Have you ever thought that your “preconceptions” are from the mind of a off as a naïve, closed-minded bigot?

    Such insane jingoism. You’re obviously a narrow-minded, bellicose bully!!

  34. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    The hacked emails from CRU are being terribly misrepresented. These amount to discussions on peer review criteria, and whether papers should be rejected if they claim global warming is false. This is a trend not disimilar from what has occurred with other scientific organizations and journals with respect to creationism and other falisfied claims. Most currently automatically reject such papers. In physics this is extended to papers which make claims of perpetual motion machines and other free energy devices. The exponents of these things cry foul of course, but to entertain these things and put them to serious review is a waste of time. Anti-global warming claims are entering into a grey zone before they are simply blocked. These emails simply indicate the beginning of discussions to automatically dismiss presumed research or claims that AGW is false.

    If you at all track scientific trends and the matters debated it is very clear that the anti global warming crowd is losing the scientific debate. They now have moved to influence the popular media, funded with $$$ by corporations who have a financial stake in the debate.

    If there is any relevance to the Milankovitch cycle and global warming it is that global warming can’t be excused as a natural consequence of this cycle.

    LC

  35. Dark Gnat says:

    Jor-El – “Krypton is doomed!”

    Science Council – “STFU, or you’ll end up in the Phantom Zone along with Zod.”

    If the governments of the world really wanted to do something to combat global warming, they would ban the clearing of ALL forests. (and enforce the bans)

    Less trees for CO2 absorption = more CO2 in the air, regardless of its origin.

  36. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    I frankly don’t understand why some of these anti-global warming wogs are so upset. They have won the political debate already, even if they have lost the science debate. The healthcare debate is telling, where it is clear that what is coming is some shred of what is needed to solve the problem. Now if we can’t really solve that problem, what chance in hell do we have to successfully address global warming? Global warming is one or two orders of magnitude larger and more complex than a financial matter with healthcare.

    The matter is going to largely run its course and future generations will face what ever consequences there are from planetary heating. It is like what Jered Diamond wrote about Easter Island, “Did they not see the day when the last tree would be cut down?” It is the same story, just much bigger. In order that the most wealthy can keep their positions of power we could well be swindled out of any plausible long term future.

    LC

  37. RUF says:

    Must be getting close to the truth. Crumb is — “unsettled.”

  38. Mike Jackson says:

    Unsettled is the least of it. It took a lot of anger for him to post this about Crowell’s earlier remark.

    To Wit:

    @ [Lawrence Crowell] said;

    “Why? because they upset preconceptions about things held by
    people with conservative minds.”

    So, according to you crap here, anyone who disagrees with you is “conservative” (a “liberal”) or what ever.

    Have you ever thought that your “preconceptions” are from the mind of a off as a naïve, closed-minded bigot?

    Such insane jingoism. You’re obviously a narrow-minded, bellicose bully!!

    ————————

    Even a stopped clock occasionally is correct.

  39. Mike Jackson says:

    Michael Mann in 2009 explaining to the New York Times how science works:

    “Skepticism is essential for the functioning of science. It yields an erratic path towards eventual truth. But legitimate scientific skepticism is exercised through formal scientific circles, in particular the peer review process. A necessary though not in general sufficient condition for taking a scientific criticism seriously is that it has passed through the legitimate scientific peer review process. those such as McIntyre who operate almost entirely outside of this system are not to be trusted.”

    Phil Jones to Mike Mann 5 years EARLIER:

    “The other paper by MM [yes, that very same McIntyre] is just garbage – as you knew. De Freitas again. Pielke is also losing all credibility as well by replying to the mad Finn as well – frequently as I see it. I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !”
    ——————
    And that is how science advances, decide that your scientific critics are mad and corrupt, akin to perpetual motion cranks, and conspire to prevent their work from being published. And all the while stating your firm belief in the value of scientific skepticism.

    And Larry Crowell thinks that is the proper way to do science.

  40. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    I can understand Crumb’s anger. When I hear this sort of quasi-science I tend to feel my blood boil. I then switch my mind to playing internally the allegretto movement of Beethoven’s 7th symphony before saying anything. That at least quells my initial impulse to go on an attack.

    In the gemish of opinion and thought the anti-global warming trend is what I see as generally conservative. Not all of conservative ideas are bad, and I tend to have sympathies with the fiscal conservatives. However, recent GOP administrations have run up debts like drunken sailors. Conservative thinking generally involves bucking any change in things. This can prevent changes that are inappropriate, but it can also stifle changes that are needed.

    The conservative trend in this nation has long past the bipartisan “get the job done” approach of the Eisenhower period. It has shifted to a belief in vanquishing opposition and setting up a permanent sort of rule. It has alarmingly been shifting from basic conservativism to something similar to fascism.

    So in the constellation of conservative thinking there is a spectrum of quasi-science, such as creationism. The GOP panders to the religious right, and pose a prospect of setting up a theocratic wing to what might evolve into increasingly totalitarian governance. Global warming is also a problem for the patrons of the Republican Party. If we are to seriously address this issue it will require drastic changes in our technical infrastructure. This is something American industry, in particular oil and coal industry, is reluctant to do. So in order to maintain the status quo it will require a media that is increasingly partisan and mendacious, and heavier handed tactics will be employed to stifle scientific research. The Bush administration did exactly this to the extent they could get away with it.

    I track what is going on in science outside of my field, and in the general articles I read in the AAAS “Science” and their online publications evidence for global warming looks rather inescapable. Of course others might read Glen Beck’s books (a comic-pundit who claims to have scooped an entire scientific community at universities, NASA and NOAA), or gazettes from the “Heritage Foundation” and the “Club for Growth.” I’ll stick to the real stuff thank you. These counter claims are an orchestrated campaign similar to the Tobacco Institute’s strategy of defraying health concerns with tobacco use. That will work only up to the point where we are irrevocably faced with a planetary wide disaster. That could well shape up in 25-50 years, and we might then be too late.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  41. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    What Jackson does not understand is that a scientific debate does eventually reach a conclusion, if at least a tentative one. Right now the data for global warming is simply winning the day and the scales are shifting heavily in that direction. It is unlikely there will be a shift the other way to reverse the current trend. Eventually the alternatives are discarded, and they are no longer given serious consideration.

    The debate over global warming is more of a media mud-fest than a real scientific debate. In 10 years or so the conclusion will most likely put the anti-global warming hypotheses into the same trash can with perpetual motion, creationism, and free energy.

    LC

  42. Mike Jackson says:

    Conspiracy upon conspiracy. Theocracy in the works. No doubt the Joooos are behind it all.

    Liberalism- License to Hate.

  43. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    In psychology there is something called cognitive dissonance, which are neuro-psychological blind spots. You don’t know how wrong you are.

    LC

  44. Mike Jackson says:

    I’ve been reading Universe Today for years, Crowell, and I’m very familiar with your habit of injecting your pithy warnings of the “danger” that Americans of faith present.

    You are a bigot.

    If anyone started posting here about the danger that African Americans present to America, with your same regularity, they would be instantly recognized as a bigot.

    You are a bigot, but I understand the nature of your lack of insight. You are a liberal and believe that YOUR bigotry is palatable.

    That is cognitive dissonance.

  45. Anaconda says:

    Crowell wrote: ” They now have moved to influence the popular media, funded with $$$ by corporations who have a financial stake in the debate.”

    Please, the big money has already left the station and put money down on carbon credit schemes and other schemes to make money off this.

    Even Shell oil corporation has spent way more money on promoting carbon credit schemes than on studies against gobal warming.

    Now, Mr. Jackson may have injected the CRU scandal into this thread, but really can you discuss global warming without it and have any credibility.

    No.

    Motive and bias are always relevant to the matter in question.

    Crowell, are you in bed with Goldman-Sachs?

    You know the Wall Street banking house.

    Because they are into the whole AGW scam big time as are many other corporations.

    Crowell is on auto pilot because he’s already drank the Kool-Aid.

  46. Anaconda says:

    Crowell wrote: “What Jackson does not understand is that a scientific debate does eventually reach a conclusion, if at least a tentative one.”

    So, the science isn’t settled is it?

    That’s not what you were saying two weeks ago.

    I’d say that’s progress.

  47. Dark Gnat says:

    I consider myself very conservative, fiscaly.

    I also consider myself moderately conservative in the general political sense.

    I also think that most of the climate change is the result of normal processes, as the atmosphere started warming before the industrial revolution.

    I also think that too much attention is being given to CO2, and not enough is being done about pollution, including light pollution.

    There are not very many “green” ideas that are truely good for the environment. For example: Fuel cells and hydrogen power are great and all, but H2O vapor is also a greenhouse gas, and a very powerful one.

    Personally, I firmly believe that humans have deforested so much of the Earth, that even if we never industrialized, there would be effects on the climate. Entire ecosystems have been destroyed. We don’t know how to live in harmony.

    Conservatives spiritualist think that we have a right to dominate the planet. Even of God wanted us to be fruitful and multiply, I don’t think He meant doing so until we destoy ourselves. If God created the Earth, then we are poor stewards, and are undeserving of this gift.

    We are like a spoiled brat who destroys a brand new toy on Christmas morning and then complains to his parents.

    This planet is our only option. There is no where else for us to go. If we are wrong about global warming, then we should err on the side of caution – that would be the conservative thing to do.

    Our government needs to stop messing around with stupid, pointless cap and trade bills, and focus on finding responsible environmentally friendly means of producing power, be it solar, wind, geothermal, or our own lazy butts.

    Instead of trying to raise the price on carbon and hydrocarbons, (which will lead to another recession, or a great depression) we need programs that help homeowners make their houses more efficient, and purchase solar panels or alternative sources of energy, which are still too expensive to be justifiable.

    We need leaders who actually will help instead of shouting meaningless tripe and lying to their nations.

    But in the mean time, the best thing we can do is plant trees, recycle, and unplug what we aren’t using.

    The ozone layer hole is proof that our actions can have global consequences. It is not about saving the planet. It’s about saving ourselves from ignorance and stupidity.

  48. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    @ Mike J, I think your comments are approaching what might be called baiting. My comment about science and religion is that science flies instruments into space to probe the universe, while religion flies airplanes into buildings. Of course that is at the extremes, but religion is about upholding something as an absolute truth, in spite of any evidence to the contrary. Things through history have gotten “punchy,” when people of faith start squabbling amongst themselves or with those who present uncomfortable facts.

    Sorry, but I am a bit on the Harris-Dawkins side of things. I don’t give much stock in any ideas of disembodied conscious beings, or at least I see little reason to presume such things exist. Generally I would think most people should get this figured out after they get Santa Claus figured out before the age of 9 or 10.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  49. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @M Jackson said;.

    “Even a stopped clock occasionally is correct.”

    Yeah. Lucky for you. Pity it isn’t 1509, because they would burn bigots like you at the stake.

    Having faith in 4th or 5th hand knowledge, using thing well out of context, fabricating untruths to improve you position, It is frankly crap. Next you’ll be reading chicken entrails and fearing comets.

    Science and technology (and not dodgy religion or personality mental disorder) has given you you lifestyle and progress in your neat little world – with the ability to communicate your distortions and trivialities. Science is great when it gives you what your hedonistic desires, but needs to be ‘killed’ when learned wisdom fails to meet you own view of the world.

    So.now. Why don’t you be a good little doggy, and follow what your misguided media masters tells you, indoctrinated by meaningless twaddle of pseudo science and painted with thick religious dogma.. (Just like Anaconda and his EU cronies here)

    Just pathetic.

  50. Mike Jackson says:

    Baiting? You post this and then accuse others of baiting?:

    “The GOP panders to the religious right, and pose a prospect of setting up a theocratic wing to what might evolve into increasingly totalitarian governance. ‘

    That’s not arguing to keep religion separate from science, a principle that the religious hold to anyway, but the non-religious are constantly still arguing is under attack . You are warning of a totalitarian government instituted by people of faith in America and leading to the establishment of a theocracy.

    You post that kind of scaremongering sentence and then posture as a reasonable, tolerant person?

  51. Mike Jackson says:

    Crumb, you are sooo slow on the uptake. You still don’t get it, do you?

    You mistakenly cited me as the author of something CROWELL SAID.

    See?

    @ [Lawrence Crowell] said;

    “Why? because they upset preconceptions about things held by
    people with conservative minds.”

    So, according to you crap here, anyone who disagrees with you is “conservative” (a “liberal”) or what ever.

    Have you ever thought that your “preconceptions” are from the mind of a off as a naïve, closed-minded bigot?

    Such insane jingoism. You’re obviously a narrow-minded, bellicose bully!
    —————

    LMAO

  52. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    Well this thread has gone into the tank. There is a clear trend where axe-grinders, true believers, and other people with “agendas” come here and turn any possible discussion into crap. Anaconda does this consistently, and now the Anti-AGW types are doing the same.

    It is another set of trolls IMO. Don’t feed trolls!

    LC

  53. Dave Finton says:

    I’ve dealt with trolls like MJ on other forums a lot less technical than this. His comments are off-topic and are the result of an individual more interested in raising a stir to gain some type of perverse satisfaction by disturbing the emotional equilibrium of total strangers. I say the best way to “attack” him is to ignore him.

  54. Mike Jackson says:

    But somehow this respect for staying on topic (this is about climate change, by the way) doesn’t apply to people like Crowell when he brings religion, Sarah Palin etc, the “pathologies” of the conservative mind into the discusssion. No one wants to call him a troll. They just let him mix politics and science here shamelessly, and call a regular reader like me a troll for responding.

    I enjoy reading Universe Today and those who add information in the comments. But then Crowell, and a just few others (more rarely), feel the need to add their pithy poltical and ideological comments as well.

    Look at the posts that get hijacked and see who starts it.

  55. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Mike Jackson said:

    “Crumb, you are sooo slow on the uptake. You still don’t get it, do you?

    Twisting the truth again, eh?

    Accuse the accuser. Neat lawyer’s trick

    …so just in case you missed i. Here kit is again…

    @M Jackson said;.
    “Even a stopped clock occasionally is correct.”
    Yeah. Lucky for you. Pity it isn’t 1509, because they would burn bigots like you at the stake.
    Having faith in 4th or 5th hand knowledge, using thing well out of context, fabricating untruths to improve you position, It is frankly crap. Next you’ll be reading chicken entrails and fearing comets.
    Science and technology (and not dodgy religion or personality mental disorder) has given you you lifestyle and progress in your neat little world – with the ability to communicate your distortions and trivialities. Science is great when it gives you what your hedonistic desires, but needs to be ‘killed’ when learned wisdom fails to meet you own view of the world.
    So.now. Why don’t you be a good little doggy, and follow what your misguided media masters tells you, indoctrinated by meaningless twaddle of pseudo science and painted with thick religious dogma.. (Just like Anaconda and his EU cronies here)
    Just pathetic.

  56. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    … oh. I GET it perfectly!!!

  57. 2ru_press says:

    @Lawrence B. Crowell

    Sir, your a prostitute… You are a disgrace to the science community. You should think about stepping down now or get on the right side of history before this blows half of your face off.

    This whole climate agenda is a FRAUD.

    The potential for the climategate scandal to derail the gargantuan agenda to exploit fraudulent fearmongering about global warming in order to ram through a new carbon tax is growing after the ringleader of the scam, Phil Jones, the head of the Climactic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, temporarily stepped down pending an investigation.

    In addition, Michael Mann, a professor in the meteorology department at Penn State University, whose emails were included in the climategate leak, is also the subject of an investigation into his work.

    The UK Met office was also forced to go on the offensive and issue a statement which highlighted the 2007 IPCC report as evidence that their data was solid, despite the fact that the very scientists involved in the climategate scandal engaged in intimidation tactics and academic witch hunts to ensure data which they politically disagreed with was blocked from appearing in the IPCC report, as well as manipulating data that appeared in the IPCC report to “hide the decline” in global warming.

    The subject will also be aired in a hearing today convened by the U.S. Congress’s select committee on global warming. Warmist advocates are set to testify but they will undoubtedly be grilled by skeptics, so expect sparks to fly.

    Meanwhile, warmists like Lord Stern are admitting that climategate could jeopardize a deal at Copenhagen on CO2 emissions that was already in doubt before the scandal broke.

    2RU PRESS…

  58. star-grazer west coast says:

    The US should spend funds to research and build cleaner power plants and vehicles to clean our dirty air, and funds are needed to clean the large surface areas tainted with dangerous pollutents. It makes me really wonder and mad why the US will spend vast amounts of funds to lower CO2 when the 2.largest industrial powers-China and India with 2.5 Billion people, will not have anything to do with lowering their CO2. I’ve said earlier in this thread 3rd world nations will continue to clear their forests, and because it IS THEIR country , these 3rd world nations will do what they have to do in order to grow crops to feed themselves-the rich European and US cannot tell them to stop- these 3rd world nations will say the European and US had cleared their forests in their early industrial period, and they will say why can’t they do the same thing!!!!!! Forests lower CO2, but without the entire world on the same page, the program to lower CO2 will merely be a costly wasted effort. We have to remember the Sun which drives 98% of our weather and climates-has the final say what humans will experience. I’ve followed the Solar cycles since the 60s’, and the last 5 years, I’ve never seen such lack of Sunspot groupings for such a lengthy period and the so-called Solar Max is drawing close- is the Sun going to go through a ‘chilling out’ period for several cycles-astronomers and scientists really don’t know!!!!! Whatever happens, humans will have to adjust to changing conditions and move should the ocean levels rises or lowers. I’ve worked most of my career for the State of California, Treasury Dept., from my experience, to me,both the left and right are the same-their only thought is just to protect themselves, so trying to talk politics to me would be a waste because I fould the politicians only watches out for themselves.!!!!!!!

  59. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    2ru_press said:

    “This whole climate agenda is a FRAUD.

    Please. Show me the evidence and not the hyperbole.

    Again, what has it to with story here; “An Astronomical Perspective on Climate Change”

    Here is the science in this story

    Laskar, J. et.al., “Orbital, precessional, and insolation quantities for the Earth from -20 MYR to +10 MYR“; Astron. & Astrophys., 270, 522-533 (1993)

    So either put up, or shut up!

  60. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    The “climate-gate” kerfuffle involves discussions on peer review of articles. It would suspect the community is facing a flood of articles of dubious scientific value which purport climate change is false. So a gate keeping standard was being discussed. This matter is being terribly misrepresented as if there is some conspiracy to keep a fraudulent science safe from critical review.

    When it comes to politics, it is interesting that blog posts here on the LHC or quasar formation of galaxies and so forth do not draw the level of attention and rancor seen with climate change posts. Why is that? Frankly, I find the LHC and black hole posts more interesting. It is because this touches on a subject that has become political. Political ideology and economic concerns are driving these controversies. It is not really the science. So in the political spectrum is it the more liberal and environmentally concerned who are crying foul over climate science, or is it the conservative right winged politicos? The question is rhetorical and the answer obvious. Is this controversy emerging as a sort of media showcase of pseudo-science, similar to the claims of scientific creationism? Again the answer is fairly clear. This is remarkably similar to the religious case for creationism, for politics and economics are ultimately secular forms of religion that attract people with authoritarian personalities or true-believers. Of course the left or liberal wings of politics are capable of creating mischief when it comes to science and other matters. Yet that is not the problem we observe today.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  61. Dark Gnat says:

    Not yet anyway. Frankly, I think the Federal government has not represented it’s people in a long time. Both parties have been bought by Corporates.

  62. Mike Jackson says:

    “This matter is being terribly misrepresented as if there is some conspiracy to keep a fraudulent science safe from critical review.”

    No doubt they didn’t think they were keeping a *fraudulent* science safe from review. Just “correct” science safe from review.

    Destruction of raw data. Hiding their own doubts about their methodology from the public. Gatekeeping to prevent critical work from being published and then, LOL, pubicly declaring that non-published work is not to be taken seriously.

    That’s how science is done, people!

  63. wjwbudro says:

    Well we all knew congress would jump in. Hopefully the hearings will help move the truth out into the open.
    http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20091203/ap_on_hi_te/sci_climate_hearing

  64. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    One of the great prophets of recent times was Phillip K. Dick. He saw and wrote in his novels about our losing grip on reality and the dissolving away of our ability to think clearly through matters. This has become a growing problem since the 1970s, where information promoted in the world has been of an increasingly suspect nature. In particular this is seen in the promotion of celebrity news and with news outlets which substitute journalism with factoids and opinion. Again I have to include that pseudo-science canard called creationism, where the exponents of this insist it is some sort of viable alternate scientific paradigm of though. This has been brushed up in new forms, such as Intelligent Design. The result is that about half the American public really think there is some serious scientific debate over evolution vs creationism This is also seen in virtual reality web game sites, where many people live the majority of their lives in a sort of fantasy. Our ability to distinguish between reality and fiction is becoming muddled.

    To consider global warming and climate change as some conspiracy requires one to think that somehow literally thousands of scientists are engaged in some program to deceive the world. Some right winged types have claimed there is a conspiracy to destroy capitalism or America. Of course this is ridiculous. Seriously, if we could keep growing an economy and there were no adverse effects to the natural world, who would really want to destroy that? After all in that world everyone would get rich — right? So nobody would decide to maniacally ruin that game. Of course that is the Ayn Rand view of the world: Capitalism is great and perfect and its detractors are all these evil shmucks who are hell bent on destroying it all. Of course anyone with a somewhat wider view of the world can see this is pure nonsense. The scientific community did not go out with some preconceived idea of destroying America and the drum up this whole idea of climate change. If you really believe that then you are clearly a lost character in one of PK Dick’s novels. The scientific community, or any subset thereof, stands to gain nothing by “destroying capitalsm.” At least I can’t see what would be gained by that. I can though see Exxon-Mobile wanting to keep their profits at a premium by disseminating false science on the issue of global warming.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  65. Mike Jackson says:

    “To consider global warming and climate change as some conspiracy requires one to think that somehow literally thousands of scientists are engaged in some program to deceive the world.”

    And yet GWT believers have been asserting a conspiracy of skeptics for years, including the old bugaboo, capatalistic greed in the form of EVIL oil companies and greedy skeptic scientists. We are being asked to accept one of two scenarios, as presented by Crowell: Either assert a Vast
    Conspiracy of thousands of scientists to destroy capitalism or be silent. No middle area where we can simply assert that GWT believers have a personal and professional agenda that interfers with their objectivity, as is in eveidence in the CRU emails.

    No, Crowell is demanding that we hold only the most extreme views so that he can knock them down.

    This is great Alinsky stuff here: “Capitalism is great and perfect and its detractors are all these evil shmucks who are hell bent on destroying it all. ”

    I could apply Crowell’s method of description and simply say that socialists think that socialism (or liberalism and so on) is perfect and its critics are all greedy sociopaths, lacking compassion and human decency.

    In fact, that is standard Alinsky talk when confronting the fact that capitalism has proven to be a superior economic system.

    As an aside, it takes a worn out intellect to hang on to the old “evil oil compny” bugaboo.

    Double credit for bring the Intelligent Design issue into it. Should I prepare a nice incorporation of the science of racial eugenics into the discussion? It’s certainly related as it indicates how well meaning liberal minded scientists can be horribly wrong and evil about something they want to believe is true.

  66. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    Well, when it comes to the word “evil,” you used it, not me. As for oil companies, well those guys have a pretty grim track record, such as the Nigerian delta region — killings, murder and so forth. So would oil companies be willing to spend $100 million dollars to create false science to save billions in profits? Yeah, I can well imagine, and the Heartland Institute is an organization designed to do just that.

    Secondly, I am not a socialist. Conversely, I am not a true believer in some idea that pure capitalism can ever work. It suffers from the same problem it had in the 16th century, where the distinction between a merchant and pirate was blurred. Think Bernie Madoff! I am just not a firm believer in any secular religion called economics — or politics.

    LC

  67. Anaconda says:

    Crowell wrote: ” So would oil companies be willing to spend $100 million dollars to create false science…”

    No they haven’t given near that much to sceptics. As stated earlier in this thread, oil companies have given more to the AGW side than the sceptic side (so they can curry favor for carbon credit trading schemes).

  68. Mike Jackson says:

    “Well, when it comes to the word “evil,” you used it, not me.”

    You’re acting like a child. You most certainly did use it, placing the word in the mouths of conservatives.

    As in: “Capitalism is great and perfect and its detractors are all these evil shmucks who are hell bent on destroying it all. ”

    And now you whine about me putting the word in the mouths of liberals? Rank hypocrisy and just plain childishness.

    You should be working with Phil Jones and Mann . They have an expert denial system in place, but it could use some tweeking from a pro.

  69. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    “This matter is being terribly well represented but there is some conspiracy by the nutters to keep a real science safe from critical review.”

    No doubt they didn’t think they were keeping a *actual* science safe from review. Just “correct” science safe from review.
    Destruction of some mythical raw data. They were not hiding their own doubts about their methodology from the public. Gatekeeping to prevent critical work from being published is wrongly deduced and then, LOL, the idiot nitwits against science declared that published work is not to be taken seriously.
    That’s how science is manipulated, by jackasses people!

  70. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Mike Jackson is a jackass liar!!

  71. star-grazer west coast says:

    My,my-what is suppose to be a thread covering Milankovitch cycling instead changed over to an ‘exchange of truths’ from 3 gentlemen who has the acute case of ‘middle aged PMS’ and. I don’t deny I also suffer from such medical bouts , but, I believe you gentleman should take your morning after pills Lol. Peace up, please!!!!!!

  72. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    I have had a number of people I know look at this blog thread. I and a number of others have been curious about the process by which people seem to ardently hold onto ideas that are either false or preposterous. This is one of my primary interests in engaging in this thread. Jackson and Anaconda are frankly lunatics, and certainly in the case of Jackson this appears to merge into political demagoguery. He has taken on the personas of people such as O’Reilly and Lou Dobbs, where in reading his stuff I would imagine the auditory content to be similar — yelling.

    From what I can tell the global warming skepticism is manufactured. As Carl Rove put it “We make our own reality,” and that about sums it up. Those who have the money to fabricate a false reality, or those who can profit from generating an artificial reality, can do so and muddle the public perception on things. This is a growing industry. I suspect that PK Dick’s view of the future may well become reality, in fact it is becoming reality. In it a fewer percentage of people have much understanding of the world, scientific or otherwise, and most people press on in their lives based on confused ideations. The net result is not so much what happened in Nazi Germany where you had a nation focused intently on a certain ideology, but rather a nation (or whole world) of people confused about a whole constellation of bogus information and ideas. In that way it becomes less and less possible to have a civic or national debate about matters in any realistic way. Under such conditions it becomes easy to govern the world in a veiled autocratic manner.

    Anyway, this blog page has fallen off the first main page at UT. It is about time for my boot heals to be wandering on. There is nothing productive going on here. This is becoming a bit like being interviewed by O’Reilly — subjected to yelling.

    Cheers LC

  73. Mike Jackson says:

    Calling your critic a lunatic. Great style, in fact a good imitation of Keith Olbermann, and Phil Jones, in fact.

    I guess that is real science.

  74. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @ Mike Jackson

    Again, (yet again) what has it to with story here; “An Astronomical Perspective on Climate Change”

    Real Science… and all you choose to do is ignore it!

    Yes, you are a lunatic and a jackass. Why? You can’t answer the question at hand!

    There is no cover up. There is no hiding data. All there is are wild statements by you without real evidence – just fictions upon fictions.

    The only thing that is dodge here, is YOU.

  75. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Repeat

    The only thing that is dodgy here, is YOU.

  76. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Repeat again…

    The only thing that is dodgy here, is YOU.

  77. 2ru_press says:

    @Hon. Salacious B. Crumb & Lawrence B. Crowell

    Gentlemen, I’m not saying the honest science of this is a FRAUD. What I want everyone to understand is that when CRIMINALS are using science to create a global carbon tax grid to charge human beings of the earth trillions of dollars while they hide behind the science and call it protecting the earth is a bunch of BULL. Science is such a blessing and is being used to charge human beings to breath? This is classic TYRANNY and anyone who those not address this issue and tries to protect the science and ignores the global climate tax agenda is an enemy to the human race and their GOD given freedoms. Let’s be realistic we have great scientist that are blessed with wonderful talents; these talents should be used to find solutions in finding infinite energy sources without enslaving the greatest species on earth while the “FEW” sit on top holding the power; and the masses sit at the bottom flipping the bill. Let’s get something clear hear, This climate change agenda has changed it’s direction in the past decades. And all I have seen is the “FEW” trying to use monetary policy in order to resolve this issue. The big corporates abuse the earths resources provide it to the innocent masses of human beings and then turn around and try to create a global tax grid which then enslaved them? I thought science was to supposed help advance the human race in populating the universe; not to depopulate the earth. Especially, not with possibly legitimate science which is being used by the “FEW” to enrich them selves. Were are the only species, as of the moment, in the universe hurling on a small blue planet, “terra firma,” on the outer arms of a galaxy. So now we have the same human beings protecting an agenda that will make the masses of the humans species suffer? All under the umbrella of saving the earth? C’MON!!! The earth has been in existence way be before conciseness starting vibrating through the atoms of our human existence. Governments do not matter, Countries do not matter, Race does not matter! With the human race, Terra Firma would just be another blue sphere in a “possibly” endless universe empty of conciseness… With out conciseness there is no order.

    “YOU CAN REJECT CLIMATEGATE ALL YOU WANT BUT PLEASE DO NOT REJECT COMMON SENSE…”

    2RU PRESS…

    “I LOVE MY SPECIES AND WILL DIE PROTECTING IT AGAINST IT’S DESTRUCTIVE SUICIDAL MIND…”

    -DO

  78. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @ 2RU

    Climate change is a natural part of what happens to the Earth. The CO2 is measured, and has shown an increase in many decades at almost a linear rate. The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. Ie. Obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt), mean distance for the sun, eccentricity of the earth’s output fro the sun, strength of the Earth’s magnetic field, etc.
    Climate change is inevitable, regardless of what you or I think.

    This issue is modification of the climate cab change significantly based on our knowledge of chaos theory. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.

    If we are going to continue as a species, humankind must learn how to react and modify the climatic conditions.

    Climate change is more about trying to reduce the risk of extreme climate.

    If you don’t like this agenda, then go live on Venus. It is a planet about the same size as Earth, has an atmosphere and a geology similar to that of Earth, whose environment has had a runaway greenhouse effect, and whose temperature is hotter than the average oven in your kitchen.

    There is no “agenda”, and when it comes to following your path or science – well, I favour science. Who cares if I have to pay 20% more to do anything! At least I know humankind’s survival might be just that little bit better than to have done nothing.

    In actually, the problem with climate change is with the industrialisation of the 1850s. What is worst is the “planned obsolescence” of what we manufacture that has cause the climate problem we have today.

    Just think. if you could just change the tyres (tires) on your car some ten times longer than now, there would be no need to make such drastic changes in climate change policy. Why do tyres (tires) wear out so quickly, because corporations want to keep customers buying types so more can be bought.

    I suggest you read Alvin Toffler. Don’t blame the scientist, blame the co-porations ad the industrial revolution.

    As I said to Mike (jackass) Jackson

    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”

    In my opinion, you’re hitting the wrong target!!

  79. Torbjorn Larsson OM says:

    Anthropic induced global warming is not likely to set up a 170 meter sea level rise. In fact from a climate history perspective it is likely to be a transient spike, where the future will see much the same Milankovitch cycling.

    OK, so the expected sea level rise is ~ 70 – 80 m.

    But climate scientists predicts that the Milankovitch cycling will disappear if the CO2-eq level goes to high, and that the risks increase after 450 ppm CO2-eq. See Hansen et al 2008.

    As current level is 385 ppm CO2-eq and rising quickly (as never before), and Earth has seen higher levels before, it is a very likely scenario. This forcing will overpower the lack of CO2 release ever since the Indian plate rent into the Asian 34 Ma, a plate that plowed carbonate rocks up for weathering. Effectively Earth will go back to a Cretaceous climate type, for good or worse.

    [For worse, if one reflects on the amount of human suffering and death all the climate refugees will endure. UN estimates 10 % of the global population 2050, if the process continues unabated.

    It is a moral problem.

    The planet could care less; according to latest research after ~ 1 My newer extinction events will have seen the return of species diversity to superior levels, a form of positive culling. Our then ancestors (mammal species average lifetime is ~ 0.1 My AFAIU) will see the benefits of the new climate.]

  80. Torbjorn Larsson OM says:

    What I want everyone to understand is that when CRIMINALS are using science

    This is conspiracy theory, which is always the least likely explanation for events. And indeed, you present no proof of criminality.

    You started out with parading around the hacking of scientists emails, which ironically falsified any such hypothesis. There was, of course, only science as usual in those emails.

    Now, as I said in my above comment, AGW presents a moral problem. Yes, we can do nothing today, and our descendant species will in all likelihood be the better for it. But meanwhile billions of people will have suffered and even died for our insensitive, I dare say immoral, lack of action.

    With out conciseness there is no order.

    Fascistic lunacy, a rare beast indeed.

    Fascinating! Scary crackpottery, but fascinating.

  81. 2ru_press says:

    @Torbjorn Larsson OM

    How is “Cap and Trade” policy a conspiracy?

    I guess Copenhagen doesn’t exist either, huh?

    You guys that believe this junk science. CO2? C’mon! The same CO2 that plants breathe, is posing danger to the environment and climate? And that human beings are the cause?

    I guess common sense these days is considered crackpottery, but fascination is good. It opens the locked mind. What’s going to be more fascinating is when this JUNK science these guys are advocating blows half of their faces off. As Governments of the world start waking up on how this science is a fraud the “criminality” will be loud and clear. The mathematics do not calculate no matter what how artistically you position the variables.

  82. 2ru_press says:

    FOR ACCESS TO ALL LEAKED DATA ON CLIMATEGATE GO TO:

    http://www.climate-gate.org/

    Please go through ALL of it!

  83. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    2ru press

    Yet just another jackass to add to my list…

    The only thing that is leaked here is your brain slowly turning to mushy jelly

    How stupid are you?

  84. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    I posted here links to desmogblog.org which exposes a lot this. My brief post got removed. There is something terribly pernicious going on these days. Nonsense is percolating further into popular conceptions of things. These run from creationism, moon hoax, alt-cosmology like EU, alt-physics with free energy or perpetual motion machine claims, and this includes AGW denialism.

    As communication technology improves it appears that at large what is happening is not so much a real universal education, but more smoke screens and confusion. A society which is mis-informed and confused is really far more easily governed by totaliitarian means.

    LC

  85. 2ru_press says:

    @Hoar. Salacious B. Crumb

    I provide proof, and that’s all you have to say? Didn’t John P Holdren get grilled in Congress for calling people names instead tackling the truth?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2oGIM9mXV4

    You must think this is cute and funny. This junk science is being used in a false manner in order set policies that will harm and possibly kill people in the poorest countries of the world. While the policy makers rake up all the cash. All you’re doing sir is being a prostitute to a pimp you don’t even know. Either your a smart a hoar and your in on the take for millions of dollars or you must be the dumbest hoar on the planet. Stop giving your soul away for free. I fell sorry for you sir. How stupid your going to feel when the 2ruth opens the door to your locked mind. If I was you I would slow down and back up for second and watch how the 2ruth missiles come dropping down to shatter the bars of the imprisoned mind. You still have a chance to do RIGHT thing sir. Why don’t you stand by your tag “Hon.” and do exactly that. Because as of this moment you’re light years from being honorable.

  86. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    2 ru_ The only thing needed to be deleted is YOU!!

    You have an agenda, and you are prepared to lie, cheat, cover, deceive, fabricate, just to be heard. Let’s check at the chicken entrails has more real science than your attempt as being an auger…

    Honourable I may or not be… ..but from your nonsensical clap-trap here… you are clearly a jackass. Scumbag is a better description for you…

  87. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    “Cute and funny” is better than “Stupid and Misguided”, methinks!

  88. 2ru_press says:

    The $145 Trillion Scam? COOKING THE BOOKS??!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7OY3tTChRE&NR=1

    “Conspiracy theory” is the new code word for denial.

    “Very rarely do you have a conspiracy where there’s actual evidence like this.”

  89. 2ru_press says:

    @Hoar. Salacious B. Crumb

    Your no longer creditable sir, so your no longer needed.

    Begone BUBBLE-HEAD! We have no use for YOU here.

  90. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    … and here I thought this was a science site, and about the astronomical causes of climate change (read the title again, jackass!) Yet you just happen to forget this, and go off in some totally irrelevant crapola.

    If that isn’t having an agenda, I like to know what is?

    Irrelevant, just like you, is what it is about.

  91. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Credibility has nothing to do with it…

    Perhaps you missed it, so here it is again

    @ 2RU
    Climate change is a natural part of what happens to the Earth. The CO2 is measured, and has shown an increase in many decades at almost a linear rate. The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. Ie. Obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt), mean distance for the sun, eccentricity of the earth’s output fro the sun, strength of the Earth’s magnetic field, etc.
    Climate change is inevitable, regardless of what you or I think.
    This issue is modification of the climate cab change significantly based on our knowledge of chaos theory. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.
    If we are going to continue as a species, humankind must learn how to react and modify the climatic conditions.
    Climate change is more about trying to reduce the risk of extreme climate.
    If you don’t like this agenda, then go live on Venus. It is a planet about the same size as Earth, has an atmosphere and a geology similar to that of Earth, whose environment has had a runaway greenhouse effect, and whose temperature is hotter than the average oven in your kitchen.
    There is no “agenda”, and when it comes to following your path or science – well, I favour science. Who cares if I have to pay 20% more to do anything! At least I know humankind’s survival might be just that little bit better than to have done nothing.
    In actually, the problem with climate change is with the industrialisation of the 1850s. What is worst is the “planned obsolescence” of what we manufacture that has cause the climate problem we have today.
    Just think. if you could just change the tyres (tires) on your car some ten times longer than now, there would be no need to make such drastic changes in climate change policy. Why do tyres (tires) wear out so quickly, because corporations want to keep customers buying types so more can be bought.
    I suggest you read Alvin Toffler. Don’t blame the scientist, blame the co-porations ad the industrial revolution.
    As I said to Mike (jackass) Jackson
    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”
    In my opinion, you’re hitting the wrong target!!

  92. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    The $145 Trillion Scam? COOKING THE BOOKS??!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7OY3tTChRE&NR=1
    “Conspiracy theory” is the new code word for denial.
    “Very rarely do you have a conspiracy where there’s actual evidence like this.”

    Ha Ha Ha, that cracks me up…

    Youtube, and YOUR own conspiracy theory” !!

    What a jackass!

  93. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    2RU the great climatologist and expert on climate change…

    He is the expert in all things and can see the whole fraud being placed on the human race. Don’t listen to those ho know what they might be talking about, 2RU wisdom is all pervading. No one can question him, nor even consider he might actually be totally wrong.

    So let’s instead all hail the mighty jackass!

    Pity they didn’t have RU-486 when 2RU was born. It might have done us all a favour! What a shame!

  94. 2ru_press says:

    @Hoar. Salacious B. Crumb

    Wow.. you like getting pimp smacked huh? I suppose you believe the polar bears are going extinct due to climate change huh?

    More on the FRAUD! Roll the tape!

    CLIMATE CHANGE FRAUD BREAKDOWN…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRomgCnKVRI

    You like getting beat up, don’t you?

    GO AWAY YOUR NOT NEEDED ANYMORE..

  95. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    The only person we don’t need any more is you.

    The truth of the matter is you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Clearly you are delusional and your mind totally closed to ideas.

    Such fixations, you poor jackass!

    Fraud and your delusions. Really. You wouldn’t know the difference!

    Climate change is one thing. Plain stupidity is another – and you have it in spades!

  96. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Again. He obviously missed it!

    2RU the great climatologist and expert on climate change…
    He is the expert in all things and can see the whole fraud being placed on the human race. Don’t listen to those ho know what they might be talking about, 2RU wisdom is all pervading. No one can question him, nor even consider he might actually be totally wrong.
    So let’s instead all hail the mighty jackass!
    Pity they didn’t have RU-486 when 2RU was born. It might have done us all a favour! What a shame!

  97. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    ….pimp smacked , prostitutes, pimps, polar bears, BUBBLE-HEAD etc, etc.

    Oh dear! 2RU must have been abused as a child or has dangerous sexual frustrations? Poor guy!

  98. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Perhaps you missed it, so here it is again
    @ 2RU
    Climate change is a natural part of what happens to the Earth. The CO2 is measured, and has shown an increase in many decades at almost a linear rate. The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. Ie. Obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt), mean distance for the sun, eccentricity of the earth’s output fro the sun, strength of the Earth’s magnetic field, etc.
    Climate change is inevitable, regardless of what you or I think.
    This issue is modification of the climate cab change significantly based on our knowledge of chaos theory. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.
    If we are going to continue as a species, humankind must learn how to react and modify the climatic conditions.
    Climate change is more about trying to reduce the risk of extreme climate.
    If you don’t like this agenda, then go live on Venus. It is a planet about the same size as Earth, has an atmosphere and a geology similar to that of Earth, whose environment has had a runaway greenhouse effect, and whose temperature is hotter than the average oven in your kitchen.
    There is no “agenda”, and when it comes to following your path or science – well, I favour science. Who cares if I have to pay 20% more to do anything! At least I know humankind’s survival might be just that little bit better than to have done nothing.
    In actually, the problem with climate change is with the industrialisation of the 1850s. What is worst is the “planned obsolescence” of what we manufacture that has cause the climate problem we have today.
    Just think. if you could just change the tyres (tires) on your car some ten times longer than now, there would be no need to make such drastic changes in climate change policy. Why do tyres (tires) wear out so quickly, because corporations want to keep customers buying types so more can be bought.
    I suggest you read Alvin Toffler. Don’t blame the scientist, blame the co-porations ad the industrial revolution.
    As I said to Mike (jackass) Jackson
    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”
    In my opinion, you’re hitting the wrong target!!

  99. 2ru_press says:

    OK.. buddy you asked for it! Here’s more common sense…

    Could this be the K.O??

    EPA Moves to Regulate CO2 as a Hazard to Health. Really? How convenient…

  100. 2ru_press says:

    CLIMATE CHANGE is trillion dollar cash machine and Hoar. Salacious B. Crumb is not getting dollar of ANY OF IT!

    Who’s the STUPID one now!

  101. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @2RU

    Oh no. They are all going to get me !!!

    Quick all hide under the bed. They might just go away!!

    Oh woe is me!

  102. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Perhaps you missed it, yet again, so here it is again
    @ 2RU
    Climate change is a natural part of what happens to the Earth. The CO2 is measured, and has shown an increase in many decades at almost a linear rate. The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. Ie. Obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt), mean distance for the sun, eccentricity of the earth’s output fro the sun, strength of the Earth’s magnetic field, etc.
    Climate change is inevitable, regardless of what you or I think.
    This issue is modification of the climate cab change significantly based on our knowledge of chaos theory. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.
    If we are going to continue as a species, humankind must learn how to react and modify the climatic conditions.
    Climate change is more about trying to reduce the risk of extreme climate.
    If you don’t like this agenda, then go live on Venus. It is a planet about the same size as Earth, has an atmosphere and a geology similar to that of Earth, whose environment has had a runaway greenhouse effect, and whose temperature is hotter than the average oven in your kitchen.
    There is no “agenda”, and when it comes to following your path or science – well, I favour science. Who cares if I have to pay 20% more to do anything! At least I know humankind’s survival might be just that little bit better than to have done nothing.
    In actually, the problem with climate change is with the industrialisation of the 1850s. What is worst is the “planned obsolescence” of what we manufacture that has cause the climate problem we have today.
    Just think. if you could just change the tyres (tires) on your car some ten times longer than now, there would be no need to make such drastic changes in climate change policy. Why do tyres (tires) wear out so quickly, because corporations want to keep customers buying types so more can be bought.
    I suggest you read Alvin Toffler. Don’t blame the scientist, blame the co-porations ad the industrial revolution.
    As I said to Mike (jackass) Jackson
    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”
    In my opinion, you’re hitting the wrong target!!

  103. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Common sense. ha! Clearly your an absolute genius!!

    All hail the master!

  104. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    …. and the jackass want to be “sensible”?

    What a whack-job!

  105. 2ru_press says:

    Global Warming big scientific fad

    More 2ruth! ROLL THE TAPE!

  106. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    “Their coming to take me away, ha ha.”

    Remember when you ran away
    And I got on my knees and begged
    You not to leave
    Because I’d go berserk?
    Well!
    You left me anyhow and then
    The days got worse and worse
    And now you see I’ve gone
    Completely out of my mind.

    And

    They’re coming to take me away, Ha-ha
    They’re coming to take me away, Ho-ho
    Hee-hee-haa-haa
    To the funny farm
    Where life is beautiful all the time
    And I’ll be happy to see those
    Nice young men in their clean white coats and
    They’re coming to take me away, ha-ha!

    You thought it was a joke
    and so you laughed, you laughed,
    when I had said that losing you
    would make me flip my lid.
    Right?
    You know you laughed
    I heard you laugh
    You laughed, you laughed
    and laughed and then you left but
    Now you know I’m utterly mad

    And

    They’re coming to take me away, ha-ha,
    They’re coming to take me away, ho-ho,
    hee hee, haa haa
    To the happy home
    With trees and flowers and chirping birds
    And basket-weavers who sit and smile
    And twiddle their thumbs and toes
    And they’re coming to take me away, ha-hahaha…

    I cooked your food, I cleaned your house,
    And this is how you pay me back for
    All my kind, unselfish, loving deeds,
    Hah?
    Well you just wait, they’ll find you yet
    And when they do they’ll put you in the ASPCA you mangy mutt!

    And

    They’re coming to take me away, Ha-ha
    They’re coming to take me away, Ho-ho
    Hee-hee-haa-haa
    To the funny farm
    Where life is beautiful all the time
    And I’ll be happy to see those
    Nice young men in their clean white coats and
    They’re coming to take me away, ha-ha!

    To the happy home
    With trees and flowers and chirping birds
    And basket-weavers who sit and smile
    And twiddle their thumbs and toes
    And they’re coming to take me away, ha-hahaha…

    To the funny farm
    Where life is beautiful all the time
    And I’ll be happy to see those
    Nice young men in their clean white coats and
    They’re coming to take me away, ha-ha!

  107. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    …sound familiar?

  108. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    The fate of the world via youtube…

    Now how totally looney tunes is that??

  109. 2ru_press says:

    Perhaps you missed it, yet again, so here it is again.

    “The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.”

    Your are misguided and there is no real science to prove that.

  110. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    All this time, and he though he was the only one who was a looney tune.

    Perhaps you missed it, yet again, so here it is again
    @ 2RU
    Climate change is a natural part of what happens to the Earth. The CO2 is measured, and has shown an increase in many decades at almost a linear rate. The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. Ie. Obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt), mean distance for the sun, eccentricity of the earth’s output fro the sun, strength of the Earth’s magnetic field, etc.
    Climate change is inevitable, regardless of what you or I think.
    This issue is modification of the climate cab change significantly based on our knowledge of chaos theory. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.
    If we are going to continue as a species, humankind must learn how to react and modify the climatic conditions.
    Climate change is more about trying to reduce the risk of extreme climate.
    If you don’t like this agenda, then go live on Venus. It is a planet about the same size as Earth, has an atmosphere and a geology similar to that of Earth, whose environment has had a runaway greenhouse effect, and whose temperature is hotter than the average oven in your kitchen.
    There is no “agenda”, and when it comes to following your path or science – well, I favour science. Who cares if I have to pay 20% more to do anything! At least I know humankind’s survival might be just that little bit better than to have done nothing.
    In actually, the problem with climate change is with the industrialisation of the 1850s. What is worst is the “planned obsolescence” of what we manufacture that has cause the climate problem we have today.
    Just think. if you could just change the tyres (tires) on your car some ten times longer than now, there would be no need to make such drastic changes in climate change policy. Why do tyres (tires) wear out so quickly, because corporations want to keep customers buying types so more can be bought.
    I suggest you read Alvin Toffler. Don’t blame the scientist, blame the co-porations ad the industrial revolution.
    As I said to Mike (jackass) Jackson
    “Blindness is clearly no cover for absolute stupidity.”
    In my opinion, you’re hitting the wrong target!!

  111. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Ice cores and deep sea bed cores provide the best available record of changes in global temperature and CO2 content of the atmosphere going back 800,000 years. The data shows a clear periodicity in global temperatures which is thought to be linked to the Milankovitch cycle.
    Back in 1920, Milutin Milankovitch, a Serbian mathematician, proposed that fine changes in Earth’s orbit around the Sun could explain an approximately 100,000 year cycle in glaciation seen from geological evidence. The tilt of the Earth’s axis swings slightly over a 41,000 year cycle – the eccentricity of Earth’s orbit moves from almost circular to more elliptical and back again over a 413,000 year cycle – and overlaying that you have not only the precession of the equinoxes, which is an inherent wobble in the Earth’s axial spin over a 26,000 year cycle, but also a precession of the whole of Earth’s orbit over a 23,000 year cycle.
    Ice core data does show a rough concordance between glaciation and the synchronicity of these orbital cycles. Even though there’s no significant change in the mean amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth over the period of its annual orbit – the orbital changes can lead to increased polar shadowing and cooling.
    Once ice does start advancing from the poles, a positive feedback loop can develop – since more ice increases the albedo of Earth’s surface and reflects more of the Sun’s heat back into space, thus reducing mean global temperatures.

    Must be something right here, or is this an illusion too…

    ..but of course some other jackass knows better..

    I wonder what a total dumbo would conclude?

    Certainly not RU-486 here, eh??

  112. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    So What!!
    Ba da da da da da

  113. 2ru_press says:

    WIKIpedia is not right all time idiot.

  114. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    2ru_press or RU-486 is not right all time idiot.

  115. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    ONE WORD…
    RU-486 GATE..
    Take “RU-486gate” at Penn State. That’s what people are calling the controversy surrounding leaked E-mails among climate change researchers that climate change opponents say expose the researchers’ fstealing of data. One jackass known as RU-4886 (aka 2RU_press) is involved in the scandal.
    The Penn State administration plans to investigate RU-486gate and determine if it needs to take further action, the Daily Collegian reports. A little more than a week ago, E-mails exchanged among an English university’s climate change researchers were legally obtained from a jackass and posted online, the report says.
    Jackasses like RU-486 opponents say the E-mails indicate that researchers changed —including Penn State RU-486 —exaggerated or fabricated global warming data. And, according to the report, some E-mails indicate that the jackass in question may have contacted researchers and asked them to “Keep certain E-mails.” (in case he didn’t understand them)

    Needless to say RU-486 is being investigated for FRAUD, and jackassery in the highest order.

    “We’ll bury the criminal”, one authority said…

  116. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Penn State officials, who will openly discuss the matter, are investigating RU-486. If anything requires further inspection, the school will handle it, a spokesman tells the Daily Collegian. A panel will read every E-mail in the entire world and determine if climate change critics have any ground for their accusations, the report says.
    “I would be disappointed if the university wasn’t doing all [it] can to get as much information as possible” about the controversy, Mann tells the Daily Collegian.

    “However”, they said, “it might take several hundreds f billions of years to do. by then it won’t matter either way!”

  117. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    A climate change fake has finally proved that climate change fakes are fake!

  118. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Looks like persistence is the ultimate reward…

  119. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    2RU_press is in deep — maybe.

    What intrigues me is extent to which these denialist folks will passionately argue their case, even if things really don’t look favorable for them. Believe me I wish this was not happening. For that matter if we could burn up more fossil fuels, and they were nearly eternally available and further there were none of these consequences I would be perfectly happy. But that does not appear to be what is happening.

    I am not passionate about global warming either. This does appear to be happening, we will probably see more of it if there are no changes and we will face the consequences as a result. On an abstract level maybe we will just be one of many intelligent life species in the universe that snuff themselves out. In the end, nobody outside of ourselves really cares.

    Philosophy is a subject where questions are posed that have can’t be answered, and religion is a subject where answers are posed which can’t be questioned. When ever people passionately argue for “the truth” and behave in unfortunate ways when challenged you have to suspect this is a case of religion — even if just secularized religion. The problem we face is that the political right has erected market economics as not just some presumed optimal system, but as something that is “the truth,” or a matter of natural law on a near equal status with Newton’s work. Global warming threatens this little belief system, for it tells us that ultimately, in the words of Ira Gershwin, “It ain’t necessarily so.”

    Anyone who cares to read these blog entries with some unbiased assessment of who is behaving properly should conclude that the AGW deniers are “shouting” a whole lot. This is a funny trend, which has many examples in history, where people will passionately defend their viewpoints (even go on the attack), when it becomes clear at least in retrospect they were setting up a dress rehearsal for some impending disaster. To say that AGW is completely false is to say we need to do nothing about this. Yet I just heard a report that this decade, in spite of a slowing of the warming trend, is hotter than last decade, which was hotter than the one before. Are they seriously prepared to assert they are so right that we can ignore the prospect of methane hydrate melting, or permafrost melting which could in a few decades accelerate warming trends enormously? Are they so committed to the idea they have the truth they are will passionately argue we need not be concerned about potential ecosystem collapses because of rapid climate shifts — with impacts on agriculture? Do these people ever have second thoughts as they kneel down before a bronze statue of Milton Friedmann — even maybe just a little bit of doubt that they might not be as certain about things as their gurus tell them?

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  120. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    I agree. I was interested to see how far this guy would go – even with the most ridiculous and annoying attacks.

    It is extraordinary to think that one’s mindset is so fixated that it cannot sort out things in degree and deal only in terms of absolutes, and worst, their absolutes! .

    I presented a logical argument, and the only hole he found was;

    “The changes in CO2 is caused by Man, who is contributing ON TOP OF the natural changes by astronomical means. With or without influences by Man the climate can change within decades.With the addition of EXTRA CO2 by Man’s own activities, can make the chaotic system even more chaotic.”

    Then his reply is;

    Your are misguided and there is no real science to prove that.

    It is an extraordinary omission. Clearly you don’t just need science to prove that. There is overwhelming evidence CO2 is rising AND burning, say coal, is adding to it. Also weather systems (and climate) are undeniably chaotic systems I.e. They cannot be predicted with certainty more than several days in advance.

    ..and yet the denier of climate changes says this view is “misguided.” If simple logical fails, then there is no chance that individual like this one can formulate an intelligent or contributory view. (it is exactly like a certain snake man I know)

    Bizarre.

  121. 2ru_press says:

    Yeah! AL GORE!

  122. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    @2ri_press

    Yeah! JACKASS!

  123. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    The conservative mentality which transitions into right winged behavior is an example of the authoritarian personality

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality

    which was outlined by Theodor Ardorno. This study was completed in a review of the social psychology behind the Nazi government of Germany in 1950. John Dean has included these analyses in his “Conservatives Wtihout Conscience,” in looking at the GW Bush period.

    Of course this does not necessarily imply conservativism, for it can work with extreme leftist political ideologies as well, as seen in the Soviet period of Russia, or Maoist China. Yet in the United States such socialist or Marxist trends have little broad social appeal. This personality type is also most often found in fundamentalist religion, where there is some belief in an absolute truth and an authoritarian structure which extends to a God. A property of such people is a tendency to align themselves with authorities, or to bring themselves in positions of authority, and most often with respect to some ideological or belief system that is upheld as some absolute truth or certaintude by authoritarian decree.

    In the case of political conservativism, and this is largely seen in the Republican Party, there have been growing trends towards authoritarian personalities and social behavior. Eisenhower wrote a couple of letters warning of trends along these lines. In this there is a belief in the inherent and inerrant basis for the United States, economically, politically and militarily. The codification of our economic system into something quasi-religious has been an ongoing program. This is seen in the Ayn Rand trend which attempts to elevate capitalism along side physical laws as something engraved in the universe or reasoning, the Milty Friedmann idea that elevates the Bentham-Adam Smith ideology into something beyond question.

    Environmental issues and global warming bring these ideas into question, which is why the right wing is on a battle horse over this. Much the same has been replayed in the past as well, such as the GOP fought hard against the test ban treaty of 1963, for this brought to question the righteousness of American military might. On other matters of science policy the GOP has been pretty consistently wrong as well, recall Reagan and the GOP with respect to AIDS, and the same President tore down alternative energy research in the early 1980s. GW Bush gave considerable nodding support for creationism in science. There is a consistent track record of authoritarian types screwing up science, such as Lysenkoism in Soviet Russia, and China had up to the 1980 a policy of refusing research on big bang cosmology — they feared theological interpretations. Unfortunately in the United States there is considerable political pressure, and PR-media campaigns, to effectively do the same with science here.

    It is of course intellectually bad if authoritarians block research on big bang cosmology. Global warming does not IMO have nearly the fascinating implications that big bang cosmology does, but it does imply what sort of world our descendents might inherit through the rest of this century.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  124. Mike Jackson says:

    “The conservative mentality which transitions into right winged behavior is an example of the authoritarian personality”

    The worlds worst authoritarians, at least in modern history have been “liberals transitioning into left wing behavior” as in Hitler himself (a National Socialist who leftwing historians are trying to sell as a conservative to the naive), Mao, Stalin, Castro, and on and on.

    Conservatives believe in individualism, which liberals now decry as a form of racism, being locked in to Identity Politics. Liberals believe in Big Government and yet claim to be against authoritarianism. You can’t have it both ways… unless you are the type to describe proper science as requiring the “gatekeeping” of dissenting science.

    Then it will work for you.

  125. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    The individualism of conservatives is a sort of sick verion thereof. It is an argument by which society can be atomized further and further so people are unable to work in any organized fashion outside of corporate structures. Corporations are about as really individualistic as bee hives are — except for the elites at the top. It really is standard play with politics which trend to extremes, or a box of fools gold. It is the right winged version of the Maxrist nonsense about proletariate freedom. Two sides of the same diseased coin.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  126. Paul Eaton-Jones says:

    What bothers me about the debate of climate change is that entrenched positions have now been established and some of the more rabid supporters from the eco-warrior brigade are seriously considering, or at least voicing, that ANYONE who dares to question the evidence, the science or research will be prosecuted under the crimes against humanity laws at The Hague. Some of the class-war warriors here in Britain have called for the death penalty when, not if, the ‘deniers’ are tried. While these numpties represent only a small minority of the establishment they are extremely vocal and have a tendency to drown out any reasoned debate. Unfortunately most of the debate is carried out by laymen, politicians and civil servants who don’t really understand the science or even the possible problem. The biggest flies in the ointment on the scientific side are the climate modellers. Their predictions change every time they run a model which leads to the news media seizing every worst-case scenario resulting in headlines such as, “5 degree rise in temperatures predicted by scientists by 2030” [The Daily Mail 2007, I think] or “0.5C rise by 2100” [same paper 2008].

  127. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    Suppose you worked on some scientific topic and you and colleagues have established something about the physical world. Then suddenly there came a growing chorus of voices in opposition to your work because it negates the existence of the tooth fairy. There is also a lot of corporate support for this from the greeting card industry which earns billions of dollars in tooth fairy related cards and trinkets. Then further you find this is reaching the halls of government, with MPs or Senators who are opposed to it. You might find yourself a little testy over this. The little heart felt letter

    http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=24483

    to the American physical society includes Roger Cohen, a former Manager and Strategic Planner for ExxonMobil. So you tend to go on the defensive at bit. Particularly for this subject which ultimately involves the sort of conditions we and future generation might face on the planet. I can’t defend entirely the actions of the CRU scientists, and in part because I don’t know all the details. The one thing is that the CRU can’t adulterate the date nor release it to the public because they are not proprietors of it.

    For people not marinated in ideological persiflage and aware of what is going on in the scientific community, the conclusions about this are becoming well cemented. The debate is a matter of politics and ideological purity. Particularly in the United States capitalism has been elevated to the level of quasi-religious status, or for the so called “objectivists” of the Ayn Rand variety something of equal status to Newton’s laws. The problem is that global warming is a big fly in that ointment. In the United States over the last 30 years the ideology of capitalism has been increasingly elevated to near divine status, as the nation has also been through a largely conservative or right winged period. Further, the media system in this country is compelled to produce content that is more and more outrageous, which means increasingly prurient serial content, but also news programming which has become less about facts and serious journalism and more about extremist opinion and demagoguery. This serves to elevate the endorphin levels of viewers and listeners in the form of anger, which is every bit as addictive as a drug. This increases viewership and consequently market share of advertisers. The one little problem might that American society is becoming less hinged together as it flirts with some sort of mass hysteria or psychosis. Along with this is the matter of global warming, which is a favorite whipping boy of the media — particularly the cable news outlets which serve as right winged propaganda outlets. For anyone who is not influence or “addicted” by this sort of thing and who have some understanding of what is going on these can only be seen as appalling developments.

    Lawrence B. Crowell

  128. Mike Jackson says:

    “Then suddenly there came a growing chorus of voices in opposition to your work because it negates the existence of the tooth fairy.”

    That’s a perfect example of Lawrence Crowell’s mind at work. Just perfect. And I’m sure that there are many liberal-minded scientists who are grateful for his self-abasement, not wishing to attach themselves to such a ridiculous and silly analogy.

    Alinsky would be proud of you. A scientist would be embarrassed for you.

  129. Hon. Salacious B. Crumb says:

    Ha! The jackass returnth

    Still trying to get the last word, eh?

    At least Lawrence makes sense. All you do is criticise and say nothing at all.

    Yet just another example of extremist stupidity!

  130. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    I suppose M Jackson does have time between organizing tea parties, organizing militias and blogging elsewhere against climate legislation. This is an indication of how the American mindset is falling apart. People are losing a clear sense of things, as we see more conspiracy theories over swine flu, UFOs, 9/11 inside job conspiracies, death panels, and so forth —- and this absurd idea that thousands of scientists who work on climate science are wittingly or unwittingly a part of some grand conspiracy. This conspiracy is thought be some to be a grand scheme to smash out capitalism and raise the red flag of communism around the world. I know someone who thinks just this! Yet this crap works, and it gets people’s endorphin levels up as their anger addiction is stroked.

    In the end the human race just might be 6.8 billion ground apes exponentially rampaging out of control. The more I hear these right wingnuts prate on the more it appears we are little more than a great bio-dysfunction.

    If nothing else the United States is at best going to become a crone of a nation populated by cranky conservative curmudgeons.

    LC

  131. Lawrence B. Crowell says:

    This is from Robert Parks of the American Physical Society.

    WHAT’S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Dec 09 Washington, DC

    1. WARMER: THE TREND SHOWS NO SIGN OFF ENDING.
    At the Copenhagen climate talks, Michel Jarraud, secretary general of the
    international weather agency, told a news conference that the period from
    2000 through 2009 will almost certainly be the warmest decade in the 150
    years of modern record-keeping. And with just a few weeks remaining, 2009
    will likely be the fifth warmest year on record. But what about those
    hacked emails from the climate research unit at the University of East
    Anglia? Jarraud replied that there is no evidence that independent
    estimates showing a warming world are in doubt. The more interesting
    question is who was behind the break-in and why? The use of dirty tricks to
    cast doubt on the reality of global warming began with Kyoto.

    2. KYOTO: THE PROTOCOL WAS ADOPTED 12 YEARS AGO TODAY.
    It?s awkward that the United States, alone among major nations, declined to
    ratify the Kyoto protocol calling for reduction of greenhouse gases.
    Without the United States, which is responsible for 1/3 of the world’s
    greenhouse emissions, the Kyoto accord was meaningless. To convince
    Congress and the public that scientists have serious doubts about global
    warming, a petition was launched. The only return address on a massive
    mailing to academic scientists was a P.O. Box. The only name was Fred
    Seitz. A famous condensed matter physicist in his earlier years, Seitz
    headed the ultra-conservative George C. Marshall Institute in Washington.
    Seitz was also a permanent paid consultant of the R.J. Reynolds Tobacco
    Company. Although he conducted no tobacco research, Seitz used his
    scientific reputation to cast doubt on medical evidence showing that
    secondhand smoke is dangerous. Now he was doing the same for global
    warming. The petition mailing included a Wall Street Journal op-ed that
    said we have an ethical responsibility to burn as much fossil fuel as
    possible to get carbon out of the ground and into the air where it can
    create life. According to NBC news correspondent Ian Williams this week,
    the life C02 is helping to create in Malaysia includes the Aedes Aegypti
    mosquito that multiplies more rapidly as the temperature rises. Aedes
    transmits dengue fever.

  132. Paul Eaton-Jones says:

    To Lawrence Crowell @10:31 a.m11-12-09. Very good analysis of the mind-set in America [as we see it over here]. It is also coming to represent a growing body of opinion in government and amongst the movers & shakers in the economy etc. While I feel capitalism is generally ‘good thing’ the way it has become the new religion with all the baggage that entails is a very disturbing move as the past two years has shown only too clearly.

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