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> <channel><title>Comments on: Shedding Light on the Sun&#039;s &quot;Lithium Mystery&quot;</title> <atom:link href="http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/</link> <description>Space and astronomy news</description> <lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:25:42 +0000</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: Aodhhan</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73197</link> <dc:creator>Aodhhan</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:14:12 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73197</guid> <description>I&#039;m not buying this.The Sun lacks lithium because it has planets... sounds more like an affect, not a cause.
When making a claim, you have to be able to differentiate between the two, and solve for both.Also, the sample isn&#039;t completely random and it is imbalanced as well. You can&#039;t take 500 stars, and stick in the values of 70, which are known... against others which are unknown. This is basically akin to &quot;slight of hand&quot;. It is very likely many of the Stars which are currently assumed to have no planets, actually do.
Basically, I wouldn&#039;t buy this paper as an undergrad thesis.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m not buying this.</p><p>The Sun lacks lithium because it has planets&#8230; sounds more like an affect, not a cause.<br
/> When making a claim, you have to be able to differentiate between the two, and solve for both.</p><p>Also, the sample isn&#039;t completely random and it is imbalanced as well. You can&#039;t take 500 stars, and stick in the values of 70, which are known&#8230; against others which are unknown. This is basically akin to &#034;slight of hand&#034;. It is very likely many of the Stars which are currently assumed to have no planets, actually do.<br
/> Basically, I wouldn&#039;t buy this paper as an undergrad thesis.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: RBH</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73154</link> <dc:creator>RBH</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:18:54 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73154</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt; “The explanation of this 60 year-long puzzle is for us rather simple,” said Garik Israelian, lead author on a paper appearing in this week&#039;s edition of Nature. “The Sun lacks lithium because it has planets.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;Um, describing a correlation constitutes an &quot;explanation&quot;?  Baloney.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> “The explanation of this 60 year-long puzzle is for us rather simple,” said Garik Israelian, lead author on a paper appearing in this week&#039;s edition of Nature. “The Sun lacks lithium because it has planets.”</p></blockquote><p>Um, describing a correlation constitutes an &#034;explanation&#034;?  Baloney.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Torbjorn Larsson OM</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73149</link> <dc:creator>Torbjorn Larsson OM</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:39:51 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73149</guid> <description>Nice!So now we know how the Ganaeans did it.[Obscure reference to A.E. van Vogt&#039;s &quot;Resurrection&quot; - actually the Ganaeans claimed their technique to localize suns with planets was &quot;unique and coincidental&quot;.Also, look at the populations in the paper, they overlap. Its not useful for individual stars.]This is one of the interesting cases where correlation is a strong contender with causation. Causation is the parsimonious case. (E.g. with correlation you have to add an object and a process compared to causation.) But as there are many more possibilities for correlations they can win out. (E.g. biology, with its many contingencies.)I&#039;ll bet on causation though, there are many possible mechanisms as well here.Btw, thanks for the link to the paper, Nancy!&lt;blockquote&gt;
It an interesting corrolation, assuming it&#039;s not coincidence.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;From the paper:&quot;We performed different two-sample statistical tests using ASURV (version 1.2). All tests consistently confirm (at the 3? level) that the planet-host and single star populations are not drawn from the same parent population. [Ref. removed.]&quot;So if it was just an ad hoc observation it would be too close to a coincidence to be useful, you would like at least 5 sigma separation. But as there is a set of likely hypotheses around (see above) that it is testing, it&#039;s sound.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice!</p><p>So now we know how the Ganaeans did it.</p><p>[Obscure reference to A.E. van Vogt's "Resurrection" - actually the Ganaeans claimed their technique to localize suns with planets was "unique and coincidental".</p><p>Also, look at the populations in the paper, they overlap. Its not useful for individual stars.]</p><p>This is one of the interesting cases where correlation is a strong contender with causation. Causation is the parsimonious case. (E.g. with correlation you have to add an object and a process compared to causation.) But as there are many more possibilities for correlations they can win out. (E.g. biology, with its many contingencies.)</p><p>I&#039;ll bet on causation though, there are many possible mechanisms as well here.</p><p>Btw, thanks for the link to the paper, Nancy!</p><blockquote><p> It an interesting corrolation, assuming it&#039;s not coincidence.</p></blockquote><p>From the paper:</p><p>&#034;We performed different two-sample statistical tests using ASURV (version 1.2). All tests consistently confirm (at the 3? level) that the planet-host and single star populations are not drawn from the same parent population. [Ref. removed.]&#034;</p><p>So if it was just an ad hoc observation it would be too close to a coincidence to be useful, you would like at least 5 sigma separation. But as there is a set of likely hypotheses around (see above) that it is testing, it&#039;s sound.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73137</link> <dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:14:35 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73137</guid> <description>The question is how it is that lithium ends up in stars without planets preferentially over those with planets.  Curiously there is a significant amount of lithium on Earth as well.  It is a bit odd if this trend is universal.LC</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is how it is that lithium ends up in stars without planets preferentially over those with planets.  Curiously there is a significant amount of lithium on Earth as well.  It is a bit odd if this trend is universal.</p><p>LC</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Curious</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73130</link> <dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:48:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73130</guid> <description>Would brown dwarf companions have the same lithium-destroying effects as gas giant planet companions?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would brown dwarf companions have the same lithium-destroying effects as gas giant planet companions?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dark Gnat</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73119</link> <dc:creator>Dark Gnat</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:43:47 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73119</guid> <description>Stars with planets come from supernova remnants (which is howwe get heavier elements)  Could the supernova have destroyed more lithuim, or fused it into heavier elements somehow?It an interesting corrolation, assuming it&#039;s not coincidence.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stars with planets come from supernova remnants (which is howwe get heavier elements)  Could the supernova have destroyed more lithuim, or fused it into heavier elements somehow?</p><p>It an interesting corrolation, assuming it&#039;s not coincidence.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73106</link> <dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:51:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73106</guid> <description>A rough estimate could consider the ratio of the angular momenta of the sun to Jupiter(L/L&#039;) ~ MR^2*freq/mr^2*freq&#039;= (M/m)(R/r)^2*(freq/freq&#039;).So the ratio of masses M/m ~ 1000, the ratio of solar radius to Jupiter&#039;s orbital radius is R/r ~ 1/1000, and the frequency ratio is about ~ 144.  So we put it into the ratio of angular momenta amd L/L&#039; ~ .14 .  If I restore the 2/5 for the momentu of intertia of a solid sphere I get the angular momentum of Jupiter is about 17 times that of the sun.LC</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rough estimate could consider the ratio of the angular momenta of the sun to Jupiter</p><p>(L/L&#039;) ~ MR^2*freq/mr^2*freq&#039;</p><p>= (M/m)(R/r)^2*(freq/freq&#039;).</p><p>So the ratio of masses M/m ~ 1000, the ratio of solar radius to Jupiter&#039;s orbital radius is R/r ~ 1/1000, and the frequency ratio is about ~ 144.  So we put it into the ratio of angular momenta amd L/L&#039; ~ .14 .  If I restore the 2/5 for the momentu of intertia of a solid sphere I get the angular momentum of Jupiter is about 17 times that of the sun.</p><p>LC</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: SteveZodiac</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73091</link> <dc:creator>SteveZodiac</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:44:04 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73091</guid> <description>This is good science and will save many man/machine  hours of sifting evidence. Well l done Israelian&#039;s team!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is good science and will save many man/machine  hours of sifting evidence. Well l done Israelian&#039;s team!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: VitalStatistic63</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73085</link> <dc:creator>VitalStatistic63</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:23:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73085</guid> <description>I wonder if the lithium that is lost from the sun is to be found in the planets instead.At the formation of the solar system, heavier elements probably made their way to the centre of the system, while lighter elements tended to drift outwards where they could have been trapped by the dust clouds that became planets.This might be tested by comparing lithium concentrations of planets relative to their distance from the sun.  If the theory holds, you would expect Mercury to have very little lithium, and Neptune to have a much higher concentration than closer planets.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the lithium that is lost from the sun is to be found in the planets instead.</p><p>At the formation of the solar system, heavier elements probably made their way to the centre of the system, while lighter elements tended to drift outwards where they could have been trapped by the dust clouds that became planets.</p><p>This might be tested by comparing lithium concentrations of planets relative to their distance from the sun.  If the theory holds, you would expect Mercury to have very little lithium, and Neptune to have a much higher concentration than closer planets.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nexus</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73071</link> <dc:creator>Nexus</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:59:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73071</guid> <description>A very rough calculation suggests that Jupiter has about 150 times more angular momentum than the Sun. I&#039;ve read somewhere that the planets contain about 99.5% of the angular momentum of the Solar System, and that Jupiter&#039;s got the lion&#039;s share of it, so that sounds about right.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very rough calculation suggests that Jupiter has about 150 times more angular momentum than the Sun. I&#039;ve read somewhere that the planets contain about 99.5% of the angular momentum of the Solar System, and that Jupiter&#039;s got the lion&#039;s share of it, so that sounds about right.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73068</link> <dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:23:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73068</guid> <description>Nexus: As an exercise you can determine if your hypothesis is reasonable.  The sun rotates about every month.  The moment of inertia of a solid sphere is I = (2/5)Mr^2, M = mass of sun, r = radius.  The angular momentum is then L = 2pi*I*freq.  Now consider the angular momentum of Jupiter.  It moment of inertial in its orbit is just mr^r, r = radius of orbit.  The frequency is 1/(11.8year).  Then use the same formula for the angular momentum to see if this is at all comparable to the angular momentum of the sun.It is curious that planet producing stellar systems would have little lithium in the star.  It is in line with the question of why comets have different concentrations of deuterium than Earth does.LC</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nexus: As an exercise you can determine if your hypothesis is reasonable.  The sun rotates about every month.  The moment of inertia of a solid sphere is I = (2/5)Mr^2, M = mass of sun, r = radius.  The angular momentum is then L = 2pi*I*freq.  Now consider the angular momentum of Jupiter.  It moment of inertial in its orbit is just mr^r, r = radius of orbit.  The frequency is 1/(11.8year).  Then use the same formula for the angular momentum to see if this is at all comparable to the angular momentum of the sun.</p><p>It is curious that planet producing stellar systems would have little lithium in the star.  It is in line with the question of why comets have different concentrations of deuterium than Earth does.</p><p>LC</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jon Hanford</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73065</link> <dc:creator>Jon Hanford</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:47:51 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73065</guid> <description>Greg points out important caveats as to the usefulness of this single observed correlation, so of course confirmatory data is needed to help confirm or refute this relationship.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg points out important caveats as to the usefulness of this single observed correlation, so of course confirmatory data is needed to help confirm or refute this relationship.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: stargeezer</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73064</link> <dc:creator>stargeezer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:46:22 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73064</guid> <description>I wonder if these results will affect Keplers observations. Can Kepler &#039;filter&#039; stars with a high lithium content? One wonders.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if these results will affect Keplers observations. Can Kepler &#039;filter&#039; stars with a high lithium content? One wonders.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nexus</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73059</link> <dc:creator>Nexus</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:19:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73059</guid> <description>Stars with planets should also have slow rotations, because much of the angular momentum is in the orbits of the planets. This is what we see in our Solar System- generally, stars like the Sun rotate much quicker than the Sun. Perhaps there is some mechanism whereby slowly rotating stars can dispose of their lithium, but quickly rotating ones can&#039;t.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stars with planets should also have slow rotations, because much of the angular momentum is in the orbits of the planets. This is what we see in our Solar System- generally, stars like the Sun rotate much quicker than the Sun. Perhaps there is some mechanism whereby slowly rotating stars can dispose of their lithium, but quickly rotating ones can&#039;t.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Greg</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73055</link> <dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:01:17 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73055</guid> <description>This is potentially some great news. At this point I would hesitate to accept this correlation until the mechanism can be understood. Additionally it may be a marker for a star having gas giants only and may have nothing to do with whether one has smaller terrestial planets. Also I would like to see if low levels of lithium correlate with higher levels of heavier elements or not. This could potemtially point to the composition of the nebula from which the star formed as being important towards planet formation.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is potentially some great news. At this point I would hesitate to accept this correlation until the mechanism can be understood. Additionally it may be a marker for a star having gas giants only and may have nothing to do with whether one has smaller terrestial planets. Also I would like to see if low levels of lithium correlate with higher levels of heavier elements or not. This could potemtially point to the composition of the nebula from which the star formed as being important towards planet formation.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: DrFlimmer</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73045</link> <dc:creator>DrFlimmer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:22:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73045</guid> <description>It will be interesting to find the theoretical background of this research. I mean, if and especially how/why these things are correlated.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It will be interesting to find the theoretical background of this research. I mean, if and especially how/why these things are correlated.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jon Hanford</title><link>http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/11/shedding-light-on-the-suns-lithium-mystery/comment-page-1/#comment-73043</link> <dc:creator>Jon Hanford</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:06:25 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=44764#comment-73043</guid> <description>I like the possibility that this technique could be used as a &#039;quick-and-dirty&#039; method of discriminating planetary systems as opposed to stars without planets.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the possibility that this technique could be used as a &#039;quick-and-dirty&#039; method of discriminating planetary systems as opposed to stars without planets.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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