December 25th, 2008
Podcast: The Christmas Star
Written by Astronomy Cast
Adoration of the Magi
With Christmas just around the corner, we thought we'd investigate a mystery that has puzzled historians for hundreds of years. In the bible, the birth of Jesus was announced by a bright star in the sky that led the three wise men to his birthplace. What are some possible astronomical objects that might look like such a bright star in the sky? And were there any unusual events that happened at that time?
Click here to download the episode.
Or subscribe to: astronomycast.com/podcast.xml with your podcatching software.
The Christmas Star – Transcript and show notes.
Filed under: Podcasts
Related stories on Universe Today
Comment policy: Be nice and brief. Don't advertise your stuff, or promote your personal theories. We'll delete any comments that break these policies. Click here for more details.
December 25th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Merry christmas to all the atheists =) !
December 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Merry christmas to all the believers =)!
December 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
didnt they find out that Venus was the object about 276 years ago?
December 25th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
the true mystery that puzzles me is do people still believe this ?
December 25th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Yes (to Chris), everyone believes in something.
December 26th, 2008 at 1:42 am
Nothing like science trying to legitimise BS and fairytales…
December 26th, 2008 at 2:28 am
religions are made by man to control people
and before someone says "what if god does exist and you never believed so your gonna go to hell"
i put this to you.
there are so many religions that on this planet alone you have a 0.002% chance of being right
now what about all the other civilizations out there in the sea of stars and galaxies. Your chance of whatever religion you believe in being the right one becomes infinitely small.
December 26th, 2008 at 3:05 am
Stephen, Bob, and Chris — relax your humbuggery. Let us have this one holiday where you don't denigrate us for our faith. I promise I won't try to convert you.
And Stephen, I'm not trying to provoke a debate, but I will say that you can certainly argue that God chooses to speak to different people (and extraterrestrials, I suppose) through different media. Maybe Christianity is only one of many valid channels to our creator.
Finally, thanks to Pamela and Fraser for a fascinating discussion. This made a great dinner table topic for tonight's family gathering.
Merry Christmas.
December 26th, 2008 at 3:51 am
How can people still follow the church when they still cling to their outdated belief in creationism.
They ignore evidence that backs up evolution and wave their "bible" (book of stories) as the only evidence they have that a god exists.
I celebrate christmas not for its religous ties but to spend it with my family playing silly games and eating a great big dinner.
Stephen was right religon was made to control people it was to scare people into being good, if you were bad in life you will burn in hell for all eternity.
It worked when there was no real intelligence and no real science.
Remeber the church locked up Galileo for saying the earth wasn't the centre of the universe.
Remember when the church said that all the planets incluing the sun were held in place by crystal spheres.
Lets also remeber that the Church used to burn people for being witches.
Also how many wars and lives been lost due to religion.
What I am saying is that religon has had to change through time to still be believable to some people. How many more times has it got to change before people start questioning its real place in society.
Merry Christmas to all
December 26th, 2008 at 4:00 am
It was god farting.
December 26th, 2008 at 4:10 am
You know that story with adam and eve and the snake that tricked adam into eating the apple.
How do religions know that the angels/god that spoke to those people long ago wasnt actually satan/demons whatever, and their religions are actually against the true god that created us. That those people that claim god spoke to them were actually tricked like adam was
In the end athiests have it made
December 26th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Chris,
If religion isn't for you, that's cool. Your philosophies are not my business. I will say this though, not all men and women of faith are creationists who believe that the universe was made in six days, or that the Earth is 6,000 years old. Most don't. And really, I think that the majority of religious people are quiet about it–possibly for fear of ridicule.
Indeed, the institution of the church has done unconscionable things in its history. But no manmade institution speaks for me or my personal faith.
It's like agnostics, especially on the internet, have become just as dogmatic as they accuse the faithful of being! Believe what you want, and don't waste energy trying to disprove or denigrate those who disagree with you.
There are plenty of philosophically sound arguments both for and against the existence of God. If that weren't true, religion would have been eliminated long ago. You need to decide which of those arguments resonate most with you and, so long as nobody is being burned at the stake, not concern yourself with the spiritual beliefs of others.
December 26th, 2008 at 8:26 am
le-havdil (to differentiate),
Regarding the birth of Ribi Yehoshua. He was born when shepherds in the field and computer calculations based on the descriptions of the astronomical observations (if it was a "star" in the east, Iranian magi would have wound up in South Korea staring out at Japan) indicate the birthdate was 29/5… in the year B.C.E. 7.
The Christian reading this will agree with me that the Creator is perfect and Torah is true. Every intelligent person will agree with me that historic facts taught by Scholars in leading universities are not made up fairy tales with no basis in historical and archaeological facts.
Lets do some research based on our common basis!
The person who researches a encyclopaedia recognized by Scholars will find that Christians celebrate an idolatrous Roman Hellenist festival celebrating the birth of the sun god, not adopted by Christianity until more than 3 centuries after the Pharisee Jew born there (336 C.E.).
There is NO connection between the Pharisee Ribi Yehoshua from Beit Lekhem (Bethlehem) and, le-havdil, Christmas; see http://www.netzarim.co.il/Museum/Sukkah09/Christmas.htm The Scriptures taught by the Historical Pharisee Ribi from Beit Lekhem taught command that one NOT adopt the traditions of the idolaters and adhere meticulously, instead, to Torah (wa-Yiqra ["Lev."] 18.3, et al.). [Part of quotes from Paqid Yirmeyahu]
To follow Ribi Yehoshua (the only possible candidate to be the Messiah based on arguments from Tanakh) by practising Torah non-selectively is very meaningful
To quote the first century Ribi Yehoshua: Happy are they to be who hunger and thirst after tzedaqah [justness according to Torah; that is practising the mitzwot in Torah], for they shall be filled of it. [The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:3].
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, the authentic Netzarim, which is in Raanana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il)
December 26th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Those atheists who are calling the science and evolutionist theories in support of their beliefs will have a really impossible job to explain our Universe's great mysteries.
They are actually really pathetic people.
I will say atheism = lack of information.
The more you learn about the Universe the more you will notice hundreds of "coincidences" which led to the possibility of our existence. In science terms speaking,
our Universe is so finely tuned at all of its levels that only a Creator could do it. That's one great thing I learned as a christian orthodox who enjoied reading very interesting articles about latest science discoveries and theories. At this point I actually thing nothing explains better the existence of a Creator than the science itself.
December 26th, 2008 at 10:23 am
I'm an atheist and I find the concept fascinating, not for any religious context, but just as a mystery. What event in the sky could have created what people saw? Of course, another real possibility is that there was nothing at all, and it's just a story. I really find archeoastronomy interesting – it's surprising to see how much ancient astronomers knew about the movements of the sky.
As we say in Astronomy Cast, it's our goal to investigate the facts, and that's what we tried to do with this show.
December 26th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Re: yoogih
So I guess you're calling me pathetic.
December 26th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Frasier,
You acknowledge the brillance of our anchient stargazers… And you know this how?
And you choose not to believe the Word as it too was chronicled and written?
We ASSUME that we KNOW more than anyone ever has before in history. Yet, they used abbacas and other instruments instead of TI-100076 calcs.
I find that our arrogance of alot of "knowledge" is hilarious.
December 26th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I don't think you, personally, are pathetic…. I think its arrogance to believe noone before us was as smart as we are today.
I think this site is great, love it everyday…But how many times has science theory been proven wrong just related to Mars? Not to mention all the Scientific data about GW that had to be readjusted just a short while ago… Nahhhhh, perfection, eh?
December 26th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Anders Branderud said;
"The Christian reading this will agree with me that the Creator is perfect and Torah is true."
Oh please! How naive, plain ignorant, and clearly aimed at insulting Christians beliefs – especially at his time of year.
"Differentiate" – absolute bull ? Actually what you are trying to do is here instead is to "discriminate." Haven't you never heard of religious tolerance?
As to; "Every intelligent person will agree with me that historic facts taught by Scholars in leading universities are not made up fairy tales with no basis in historical and archaeological facts."
This statement probably ranks one of the most deluded statement I've ever read.
What "Scholars" – assuming you mean theologians ?
What "historical facts", for the existence of this star ? (one of the greatest oxymorons)
Where are the "archaeological facts" of this star in question?
As for your Torah, the Christian would simply missing quite a few books, methinks.
Oh yes, and glad you see support for that great old Christmas tradition of smite… an eye for an eye…
Perhaps you should next time just carefully read the "Song of Deborah" again and remind oneself of god's mercy towards innocents – you simply can't get any less perfect than that!
Frankly even the atheists show more compassion than this diatribe! Shame on you.
December 26th, 2008 at 11:38 am
http://www.bethlehemstar.net – Read it. It strengthened my faith and scientifically examines the Star.
December 26th, 2008 at 11:45 am
As said a few days ago…"In my own view, It has always amazed my why it necessitates applying religious faith that has to so heavily rely on portents via miracles, mythology, fable or simple circumstance – just to validate its own dogma."
If your faith has to so heavily rely on ancillary information and authenticity just for validation – therefore the practitioner of faith just simply doesn't understand their core tenants of their religion
Really, the Star of Bethlehem is plainly supposed to be a symbol of hope – symbolic of the coming of a Messiah – no more, no less.
December 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Of course it's arrogance to say anything about who knew what or when – but we have evidence of what some people knew because they wrote their ideas down. For example, we know what Ptolemy thought about the Universe (he thought the Earth was at the centre, and the Sun and the stars revolved around us).
I'm happy to say "I don't know". What's dark matter? I don't know. What's dark energy? I don't know. What came before the Big Bang? I don't know.
You're saying that you do know. Great, so how do you know what you know? What method do you use to determine what's true and what's invented myth?
December 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Many discoveries have been made based on myths and religions. Don't be so ignorant as to exclude religion from scientific and historical discovery.
Many religions are based on history and science. Don't be so ignorant as to exclude science and history from religion.
December 26th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
yoogih,
Atheism = true enlightenment.
I hope you reach our level one day…
CHEERS!
December 26th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
i was tired of this topic long before the podcast
December 27th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Chris,
In the name of religion, ignorant people did some very stupid things. No where in the Bible does it say to burn people or torture them or force them to follow a religion.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:08 am
December 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Frasier,
Faith does NOT mean that I know. I have faith that there was one being who may have popped the top on a megabig coca-cola can after shaking it up in celebration….
Faith MEANS that I acknowledge that I do not know everything, I can't put it altogether in a nice package and call it "done".
Earlier someone said that the Christmas celebration (at that time a winter celebration) was taken over by the Christians. What they failed to include was that the Christians, being smart, wise, and logical, did so because their celebrations for Christmas (and their practice of their religion period) was forbidden.
They used the period of the celebration to conduct their own seperate celebrations.
As far as atheism being true enlightenment
Without the Christian faith, there would be no science in the Western world. The CHURCH paid for all arts, music, sciences.
You'll be missing this point methinks as you froth at the last point…
Individuals who then became aware of discoveries that went against what they thought things should be, were just that, scared, corrupt, and unappreciative of the magnitude of those discoveries….
Much like the way we (most public) are today about the discovery of water on Mars, etc. Very unappreciative of the difficulties of planning, preparing for, executingthe Mars projects….
The old question remains….
Who popped the cork on the big bang?
Yeeah……..
December 27th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Thanks Pam and Frasier for the enjoyable podcast. It is fun to investigate the possibilites of such a "star" with the wonderful tools we have today.
These responses were much easier to predict than occulations in the first century.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:35 am
lol…don't worry about the responses..
The fact of the matter is that THEY did do a great service in bringing this up….
Knowledge and issues need to be debated. Thats how we all grow in our understanding of the universe. Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I don't want to know what makes Mars, Venus and other "heavenly" objects tick.
Frasier and Pam did us a great service and it fostered conversation among us… Isn't that what not only this forum/site but life itself is about?
Only the dogmatic can not appreciate the values of both POV's…..
I consider those that are atheist to be shortsighted, BUT am always willing to learn from their perspective.
I wish all a Merry Christmas. Please understand that discussions are not necessarily bad. The only time some can be interpreted that way is when you perceive that your beliefs are under attack and are losing.
Until there is someone who can definatively tell me what caused the Bigum Bangum…. Faith in God remains.
Bless you.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:40 am
eww just reread my "froth at the last point.."
I meant for atheists as a whole notttt a specific person…..
And by froth I ofcourse meant upset…. I would think some at that point would stop reading and not read further…. sorry, I didn't want to leave a misconception around….
December 27th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Tareece why would you say that atheist are shortsighted ? People become atheist because they have asked themselves fundamental questions about human existence … and they came to a conclusion. So I don't think we can call them shortsighted au contraire.
I think atheist enjoy their life slightly more because they understand that life is short and really try to make the most out of it ! And they don't seek reward when doing a good action.. because they don't expect anything after death. That's a scary prospect … no wonder people teach their children religion.
But I do think that moral should be thought out of the context of religion … if not when the young generation chose atheism they will ignore moral values because they associate it with religion… young Europeans are already mostly atheists.
In these days What I dislike is when people still try to mix science and religion together. Like in the field of astronomy…
But I do agree with Christians on a thing or two … like conventional man and women union !
Just to say don't have look at atheists too badly … they haven't become pyromaniacs, they can still be good people and have decent moral values.
December 27th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
@maudyfish ok maybe not witches but what about what the bible says about homosexuals. Also how can you say the bible doesn't force people to follow into following a religion what about abouth the part of the ten commandments and if you do not follow them you will go to hell. Seems like scare tactics to me.
@tareece so I'm shortsighted I think you need to look upon yourself to see who the true shortsighted person is. I like the way you try to think by making a post you hope people don't read further. Worried about what other things atheists may say, to make you question your faith ?
Oh and dont bless me I dont want/need your blessings.
There is a fantastic book called The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It is not a book that rants abouth atheism it has been written so that religous people as well as atheists can read it.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I am wondering from scientific point of view. If you take the thousands of religious believes, even within christians you have so many different splitoffs. And compare them with each other, would the not cancel each other out?
And I am also wondering. Those claming to know it all and scientiest know nothing of the everything, did they ever read a real science book?
You know? The more I read about quantum mechanics, string theory cosmology and so, the more I see and experience that the universe is waaaaaay more beautiful and complex that far exceeds the bible ever can tell you.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Chris,
I'll make you a deal. I will read the God Delusion if you read a version of Scripture with commentary…New Interpreters Bible is generally regarded as more or less in depth. Judging by your last comment, you haven't taken the time to make a reasonable inquiry into the material. Scripture doesn't say much about homosexuals (I know plenty of homosexuals who are Christians), and the "Ten Commandments" comment you made isn't accurate. Read the material thoroughly…or comment on the material accurately as the case may be…and then form a conclusion.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
I also agree with SIGH, This tired subject gets more worthless every year. BUT -
I grew up in a strict religious home until I began to ask "why?" and "How do you know?" too often at church and my Mom was asked not to bring me back at age 12.
The only reason I can think of that there SHOULD be a supreme being (???) is because I would hate to think that Stalin and Mother Theresa are in the same place…… If there really is a PLACE at all…..
Religion was a way to hold power over people when people were to ignorant to know better. It is meant as a morality tale and nothing more, and has been "embellished" for so many thousands of years that it really is too far from its original meaning for todays scientific world – in the dark ages… maybe- but they were using torture then weren't they…
It is simply a single persons opinion that has changed when ever someone felt the need to change it for personal gain. (Power and Wealth)
If there really was a "God", and that imaginary friend REALLY meant the best for the human race, Hitler would not have survived 40 plus assassination attempts and Stalin would not have been able to kill twice as many people as Hitler.
You can have faith in something and not dismiss proven scientific facts – just as long as you know the difference.
Religious fanatics are usually too absorbed to see both sides so I go with what is proven FACT.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:26 am
gudenboink:
I don't get the comment about Hitler and the evil people that "God" supposedly ignored. The human race is flawed, limited, and filled with evil people with evil intentions. Who got us into that mess in the first place? It sure wasn't a supreme being. If there is a supreme being, I wouldn't expect him/her/it to save the human race from all their problems. We caused our own problems by our own decision making. If we were saved from all our bad decisions, we would just turn around and do the same thing again. I agree about your point about religious fanatics. But I don't agree that we even have the ability to make sense of any proven facts….
December 28th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
@diakanos aha but who "designed" hitler in the first place. Surely the designer must be held accountable. As if you bought a car and it had a design fault you would blame the desginer. Whats the difference with a "supreme being"
Also if there was a supreme being who allowed millions of innocent people to suffer at the hands of evil dictators and stand by (or float in the clouds) I sure wouldn't want to go to meet him or support his faith.
Please dont waggle "free will" at me.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Yes I agree, the fact that God, Who can put every atom at the correct place of everything in the whole universe have been able to create a monster like Hitler that actually killed his chosen people in the name of GOD!.
Either he designed this Hitler on purpose or he is a very sloppy designer.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
……or there is no designer
December 28th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
So Chris, if not free will, then what is your point of view?? Are you saying that you have no ultimate control over your actions? That would make you a pissed off believer in a supreme being/designer (pissed by virtue of the fact that you keep bringing up evil nasty people that an intelligent designer should have knowledge of). Not waggling anything at you, by the way.
December 28th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
By the way, I'm not interested in debating the church or religion. I'm interested in your philosophical and/or spiritual point of view…
December 29th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Chris, again let me ask you to do this once more……..
Read the ten commandments and print me one that says you "have" to follow them.
It is all the way one interprets the bible, therefore, an intelligent person will say "they are "fundamentally" a basic way to live life."
December 29th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
why would anyone want their life to be designed for them
the only reason i can think of would be that it justifies any crappy decisions youve made in your life
If God has planned your life, then next thing you will accept the government planning your life.
And they can say, god planned for us to plan your life
December 30th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Perhaps Chris you could tell us what is it that you want with or without religion for mankind to do.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:06 am
@Chris who said–
"@tareece–. I like the way you try to think by making a post you hope people don't read further. Worried about what other things atheists may say, to make you question your faith?"
Hey chris….. No actually I was betting that other people would see my comment and react dogmatically to one point without reading the next point…Thanks for the affirmation….
And Chris sayeth:
"Oh and dont bless me I dont want/need your blessings."
You got them anyways, throw them away if you must.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Roger says:
"Tareece why would you say that atheist are shortsighted ? People become atheist because they have asked themselves fundamental questions about human existence … and they came to a conclusion. "
What made things out of nothingness? Simple question for a bunch of rocket scientists isn't it? What ignited the 1st nuclear reaction that caused the universe to begin?
Saying that "I am me, and I know there is no God so I can do as I wish" shows how shortsighted athiests are. It is THAT shortsightedness that ALLOWS them to do as they please with no regard for their immortal soul and no consequence for their actions. "Free will" is exactly that. God allows us to reduce ourselves and live according to our own rules. Hes not stopping Frazier, or Chris or anyone from their earthly beliefs. But when you consider all of the other "perfect coincidences" for us being here, right here and now with noone around for billions of milesin a rapidly expanding universe and galaxy….you are very alone, and insignificant. Perhaps the universe has declared its experiment with us a failure and running away from us in all directions? lol
Roger says:
"But I do think that moral should be thought out of the context of religion … if not when the young generation chose atheism they will ignore moral values because they associate it with religion… young Europeans are already mostly atheists. "
Morality should be thought as right/wrong…but without a moral/religious base to cement it in (ie a God who is the final arbiter of our afterlife) people reduce themselves to their lowest denominator and disregard all that was taught to them.
Yeah, Euro youth is exactly the picture I think of when I think of what I want my kids to be…….
December 30th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
First of all, the universe was not created with a nuclear explosion, nor was it an explosion at all. It just grew with a fast pace, but not the result of an explosion. We need the Large Hadron Collider to find out more details about that initial process.
Unlike the bible, in the beginning there was NO light. Light was trapped in the early stages if the universe when it began. Light came after the universe came into existence. And only much later after the universe cooled enough energy froze and became matter. Only Helium, Hydrogen and traces of Lithium.
Also, although science cannot disprove at this time that a god could exist yet, we do know that if a god exist that the universe did not need one at all to become what it is now. Also for the start of life, there is no need of a god to have life as we experience now. According to science, if a god existed at those times, he just stood by and watches it all unfold automatically without doing anything.
Again, if you look at the gods in the bible and look at what we now know about the universe, it is clear that this god in the religions would be very small compared to the wonders of the universe. This god would be some alien evolved race, but not something that created this universe.
Now could scientists prove that there is a god? I think that it could be proven by finding evidence where the laws of physics fail. The problem is, up until now we did not find such a place. For something that is supposed to have created everything, the lack of any small shred of evidence out there, makes it extremely unlikely that a god actually did anything at all.
Also if you look at all the physical forces, you can only conclude that it is very logical that life started in right here since life is the result of all these forces and chemical processes in place. And it is also perfectly logical that other life will be started at other places completely different from Earth and might be none-carbon based. But it will also be intelligent life, maybe even more evolved than us. There is no doubt that life exist everywhere in the universe in those life hotspots. But up until now we still have to learn to detect those. More and more building blocks of life are found in the universe. We might even have originated from a different part of space and just happened dropped here by a comet or meteorite.
Only the older Europeans and a very small group of young Europeans are still believers, but none of them I know believe that Earth exists for a small period. The first time I heard that people actually believe that Earth was only 6000 years old; I fell from my chair and wondered in what African country those people lived. And morality is quit high here even though it is not based on religion compared to the US. We have no Guantanamo bay prison where prisoners are tortured.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
You know, I have found more immorality with people that are religious that those that are atheists.
Hitler started a war in the name of God. People get killed in Israel by people that believe in god. Terrorists blow themselves in the name of god… And it is very clear now that the so called war on terror is done by people that are religious. The US is on a Crusade in the Middle East right now even if they pretend it not to be.
Also the most immoral people I have seen all went to church on Sunday to be forgiven for their sins. And on Monday they start it all over again because they know that by going to church all will be forgiven again.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
@maudyfish with regards to the ten commandments.
You have just proved my point exactly the 10 c's were created by man as a basic way to live life. They were not created by a "god".
I want mankind to leave behind this primitve prehistoric religous nonsence. Every scientific discovery thats has occured in history and started to discredit the church the church has attempted to hide it or make the people who made this claims out to be fools. Until recently, when with the freedom of information people are becoming more often to question their beliefs in supreme beings. If you weren't taught about religion until you were 15 years of age you would think the person telling you about god was crazy.
Jesus in my opinion was mentally ill but came around in a time when people were susceptible to outlandish claims. (Monty pythons Life of Brian illustrates this perfectly) "hes not the messiah hes a very naughty boy"
@terrece I have thrown them away
You go on about coincidences, your not looking at the universe as a whole. Think of how many stars there are in our medium sized galaxy, billions. How many galaxys are there 1000's of billions. If you then look at the discoveries that occur almost daily now of planets orbiting nearby stars. It is only going to be a matter of time before we find a planet that is capable of sustaining life outside of our solar system. If you say that 0.0001 % of all the stars in the universe, have planets that are capable of sustaining life you would be talking about millions of planets.
Its not a matter of coincidences but a matter of odds. At somepoint you will get a planet in the safe zone where life can florish.
We are some of the lucky ones.
Evolution is a fact people face up to it. Look at apes and how similar they are to us, you cannot ignore that.
It has occured over millions of years and for the last few 1000's of years people are still going back by supporting faiths that were created in a time when the Earth was the centre of the galaxy.
If a supreme being was to create a species why would he create it with flaws such as birth defects, mental illness, susceptability to cancer and other such illnesses.
If he did create us (which he didnt) it would be some kind of a sick joke to see all of these kids dying through malnutrition and other such attrocities that occur everyday without doing anything.
Take your free will and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
@olaf – you hit the nail on the head
December 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I think that the big scare of religious people is to realize now that they themselves are in full control over this world and are fully responsible for everythng that happens on this world.
Heaven is right here right now, but we have to become responsible for our own actions and create heaven ourselves. There is absolutely no reason why people in this world are starving to death, not having no food or not having no water.
And so far when I observe reality, religion is beeing used to actually turn this Earth into a hell. The best example is rigth now in Israel. Those people have their morals imbedded (cemented) into the bible, but they are killing people. You will not find Atheists out there. Atheists are probably found in the red cross helping those people wounded.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
But even the Free Will theory does not make any sense. If you are born with a handicap, where is your free wil? If you are born in a war zone, where is your free will? If you are beeing raped as child by a priest where is your free will?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
exactly olaf you never get extremist atheists killing people because of their religon.
Look at Israel fully armed to the teeth by the US blowing the crap out of children and other innocent people.
They may blame the rockets that come from Palestine but how can 4 Israeli deaths justify 400 Palestinians dead.
Remember Israel is supposed to be the religous centre of the world for many faiths. Look at all the trouble that causes.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Olaf and Chris,
You guys sound like a couple of atheist fundamentalists. Your rhetoric is as self righteous, arrogant, and narrow minded as the so called religious people that you condemn. I don't know what's worse…going to some church and having a religious wing nut cast their moralistic judgments on me or hanging out with people like you that do the same thing. You guys really have a future as televangelists. All the more reason for me to quit reading the comments and just read the articles. If there was ever evidence of the decline of modern civilization as we know it, your attitude couldn't be more clear or convincing proof.
December 31st, 2008 at 3:57 am
Ok Chris I understand what you want us to do. Correct me if I am wrong. You want us to follow actors and movie makers rules. They make more sense to you than the "10 C's".
December 31st, 2008 at 7:15 am
Power to the atheists !!!!
We may not have the answers but at least we are true to ourselves and acknowledge that. Instead of pretending like we do have the answers like religions.
You all deserve a beer, have a happy new year and don't forget to keep asking the hard questions ! for if we don't then nobody will !
peace
December 31st, 2008 at 7:37 am
Look Diakanos, creationists and 2012 people are starting to flood Youtube science sites and space sites with false information. I believe it is logically that some people start to debunk those false clames on what are called science sites.
I do not expect people to believe me blindly, just I ask them to check for themselves and think critically.
I just want my science sites back without those 2012 and religious nuts.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:52 am
Very good explanation guys, I appreciate it very much. I learned alot from just that, quite honestly.
But what was here before nothingness…and what made the decision to "hey, lets expand and grow…who knows how big we'll get!"
The fact that there was enough matter crunched together in a speck smaller than an atom and it has grown to this size and is growing further is explained by what again?
And as far as our physics THEORIES always being right, there was something quite recent that was going on that couldn't be explained by our current knowledge (er, theories) of physics. Can't recall exactly, but I'm sure you can google it. Under "Physics Turned on Ear"… or perhaps, "Physics- What we don't know"
Ok Olaf.. We find a planet that we think is habitable, ohhhhh I don't know, 1×10>10000 AU away from us…. Dang we found a needle in a haystack! and that its moving away from us at an incredible speed it is a fanicful notion that we'll ever go see/communicate to any large degree with our brethren of the universe.
LOL… Chris, I guess you are free to wish bad things onto me and to do as you wish, you only further prove me correct.
"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." (Revelations 22.11).
ok Chris…. In labs rodents have a biology similar to us and people experiment with them to see how drugs might affect us…. So, u r a rat and I am an Ape?
Another thing… If we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Were they slow learners?
Why is there 100's of species "thought to be extinct" surfacing almost daily (or quite frequently anyway)?
You mean to tell me science was wrong? naaahhh, a misake in data? Surely there just couldn't be something that science can't explain away.
I've been very cordial. Yet I've been smacked around by angry people who profess the ability to rise above little things like religion…profess to be better yet constantly prove they are not.
You simply show your religious hate of others who disagree w/ your "enlightment"… ohh shit, that sounds like Islam..
December 31st, 2008 at 11:10 am
I think it's OK to just admit that you don't know. Doing what seems right, woking hard, and abiding by the golden rule is all that any of us can do or should be expected to do.
Following any religious belief system hook line and sinker (to me) involves a lot of hypnotism and a simplistic understanding of the universe.
December 31st, 2008 at 5:11 pm
There seems to be some general confusion between the definitions of atheism, agnosticism, theism and antitheism (or anti-theism) in the discussion here. Such terms have some important distinctions.
- Theism is defined as those who have the belief in the existence of god or gods who made the universe and has influence (or creation) on its origin or destiny.
- Agnosticism is given as someone who thinks that only the material world exists. As such, they are people who say they have no faith in god or gods nor has the view that they disbelieve in god or gods.
- Atheism just defines that these gods or gods don't exist at all. (passively)
- Antitheism further refines this position that god or gods not only doesn't exist, but is actively against all theism altogether
Arguments, like these religious matters, fails because people don't distinguish which camps they are in. Religious people often wrongly claim agnostics (scientists) are instead lumped in as atheists; when based on scientific principles, and most cannot claim nor dismiss god or gods because no physical evidence can prove the existence of either god or gods. Agnostics are therefore just people without faith. (faithless -without the context of not believing) Therefore, they are not necessarily against those with faith nor denying theism. Religious people often see this as a penultimate wedge, claiming that there is real physical evidence of god or gods existence beyond just their personal religious faith. This is why the tenants (via dogma) of the various religions cannot let the fabled icons or places like the Star of Bethlehem, Noah's Ark, Jesus' birth or burial place, Mecca, etc., not exist, as this only proves the arguments of proponents of agnosticism and science. Furthermore, an agnostic can have disbelief on the part or most of religion's dogma. I.e. Rejecting moral or ethnic precepts, or still searching for alternative truths or points of view. etc..
Atheists however take agnosticism one-step further, by totally denying the existence of any god or gods. Often this manifests as a personal belief that kept to oneself, where those of faith still have the freedom. Most religions wrongly accuse atheists of not tolerating their religious freedoms or being against them holding 'faith'. Theists also often label atheists as having opposition to God and being against their piety or reverence – but by definition this is not true.
Actually those who are against religion altogether, and set out to undermine its authority, limit displays of faith or ban religions altogether are actually antitheists and NOT an necessarily atheists.
If you must argue on issues like this one, it is important you label someone on their level of religious faith. Those arguing here do not appear to understand these differences make only meaningless statement without either understanding others point of view.
IMO, I truly dislike the well-designed "closed loop" of the Christian faith (and Islam, too), whose circular arguments of what ever they believe cannot stray beyond either narrow dogma, differences in interpretation or reality or nature of the physical world, other moral standards or viewpoints, etc.
This explains why I said;
———–
"In my own view, It has always amazed my why it necessitates applying religious faith that has to so heavily rely on portents via miracles, mythology, fable or simple circumstance – just to validate its own dogma."
If your faith has to so heavily rely on ancillary information and authenticity just for validation – therefore the practitioner of faith just simply doesn't understand their core tenants of their religion
Really, the Star of Bethlehem is plainly supposed to be a symbol of hope – symbolic of the coming of a Messiah – no more, no less.
January 1st, 2009 at 9:55 am
Crumb… Thanks for the definitions. What does that make me? A believer in God but also alover of science and discovering the mysteries of the universe?
January 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@maudyfish
"Ok Chris I understand what you want us to do. Correct me if I am wrong. You want us to follow actors and movie makers rules. They make more sense to you than the "10 C's"."
I haven't got a clue what your on about. Actors moviemakers ?????? what have you been taking. I mearly pointed out that the 10 c's were created by man as a way of controlling people. A lot like law does today.
@tareece
You really do live in the dark ages. How many different species of ape are there. As a species we humans evolved from a species of ape that guess what isn't around today as we evolved.
I like the way you quote the book of stories (bible) at me. Are you saying I am evil or filthy. As I am neither just because I don't believe in god. You will be burning me at the stake next. Just for your information I probably help more people in a day than you do in a year.
I dont show religous hate I just think people like you need to fully need to appreciate science and nature before believing in a supreme being. Maybe if you weren't brainwashed as a child you would understand.
Religon is outdated face up to it.
Science is sometimes wrong yet you believe in something that has absolutly no evidence whatsoever in existing.
January 1st, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Chris.. Geez.. I get your hate at me ok? Really…. its ok! I forgive you.
I'm not a stone-ager. You show tru enlightenment while you throw these comments at me…
Burn you at the stake? No kiddo… That I would never do. That task is reserved for yourself.
Read your own hatred aimed at a person that you've never met but choose to vilify.
I am GLAD you do for others. I am GLAD you think for yourself.
But your own anger betrays your own insecurity, and frankly goes over the line into a deep felt extremist POV most would associate with the worst examples of radical
religion.
If you have the EVIDENCE of "the Missing God" please, do tell so I can make a case on the other hand.
What happened 1000-2000 yrs ago is simply conjecture today resulting from our intrepretations of yesteryears accounts.
I say there is a God. You say there isn't . One of us is right and the other mistaken…Worse case, I'll be wrong and will have maggots eating out myeyeswithin a couple of weeks after I pass….
Best case… well, for me???? I'm saved, my faith rewarded… and well you're wrong..and still forgiven.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:20 am
sorry where is my hate of extremist views. please quote me if you can.
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
That's too bad Chris that you feel that way because there is room for everyone and whatever their beliefs here on Earth.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Refer to below.
In your eyes, I am an idiot, a stone-ager, outdated, of no real intellectual value, a witch burning fanatic, and a non-helping slouch of the nth dgeree….
Nahhhhhhh, sounds like love after all.
Chris Says:
December 25th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
the true mystery that puzzles me is do people still believe this ?
Chris Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 3:51 am
How can people still follow the church when they still cling to their outdated belief in creationism.
wave their "bible" (book of stories) as the only evidence they have that a god exists.
It worked when there was no real intelligence and no real science.
Chris Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Take your free will and stick it where the sun doesn't shine
Chris Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
@terrece I have thrown them away…
exactly olaf you never get extremist atheists killing people because of their religon.
Chris Says:
January 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@tareece
You really do live in the dark ages
… like the way you quote the book of stories (bible) at me. Are you saying I am evil or filthy. As I am neither just because I don't believe in god. You will be burning me at the stake next. Just for your information I probably help more people in a day than you do in a year.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:50 pm
are all of you people crazy?
would you all calm down?
first of all, no one will learn anything if you get all worked up and set on only what you believe
when everyone is calm and not trying to kill each other over internet cables and such maybe we'll all be able to explain our views in a less heated manner that will either allow people to be saved into the grace of God or allow people to realize that there is no God….if everyone just clears their mind and approaches this topic coolly instead of losing their tempers then one of those two things will definitely happen and everyone on this site will be surprised which way it goes….including me because i don't profess to know how things will turn out in the end
anyone of you people who claim that they know for absolute certainty there is no God just because they haven't looked for the evidence is a fool
and anyone of you who claims they know there is a God just because that's how you grew up and you didn't go on your own spiritual journey is also a fool
and anyone who thinks they really KNOW anything is a fool
and yes
i am a fool
so let's just chill out and calm down 'kay?
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
you know, i'm going to contradict myself….
anyone who thinks they really know anything is not always a fool
but still my point is intact…everyone here including myself is a fool