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	<title>Comments on: The Neutral Hydrogen Gun: A New Solar Flare Phenomenon</title>
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	<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/</link>
	<description>Space and astronomy news</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:17:24 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-47179</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-47179</guid>
		<description>Mate- don&#039;t assume I know what the hell I&#039;m talking about either :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mate- don&#039;t assume I know what the hell I&#039;m talking about either <img src='http://www.universetoday.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bill L.</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-47146</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-47146</guid>
		<description>heh, wow, I definitely over-thought that one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heh, wow, I definitely over-thought that one&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-47102</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-47102</guid>
		<description>Bill, It takes twice as much energy to accelerate Helium as it does Hydrogen. The Hydrogen will still arrive first at the detector and the theoretical plane (?shell) of electrons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, It takes twice as much energy to accelerate Helium as it does Hydrogen. The Hydrogen will still arrive first at the detector and the theoretical plane (?shell) of electrons.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill L.</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46898</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46898</guid>
		<description>Right, so it should be statistically less likely, but there still should be some measurable amount of neutral He, especially because the helium nucleus would pull on electrons with twice the force of a proton.  And then, once it had captured the first electron, it would then pull on the second electron with the same force as a proton (hydrogen nucleus) would.

This is what I&#039;m picturing:

He nuclei &amp; protons pass through the cloud of electrons at a very high speed.  Initially, the He nuclei exert a greater force on the electrons, so you get a 2:1 ratio of He(1-) to H(0).  However, the instant that any He(1-) is created, it begins acting like a proton, so you would think that the first few He(1-) to form (molecules on the leading edge of the ion cloud) would still have a good number of electrons to pick from to make it to He(0), as they passed through the cloud of electrons.

Actually, come to think of it there might still be an answer.  I&#039;m picturing the two clouds of opposing ions as sort of oblong shapes, flowing into and through each other head on, as they should be traveling in anti-parallel directions (as the E field pushes one in a given direction and pulls the other in the opposite direction).  However, if the electron could was wide but only a few atoms thick, the He (1-) wouldn&#039;t have a chance to become neutral, because grabbing just one electron would mean that it was already through the cloud...

ok, so now THIS is what I&#039;m picturing:

a sort of plane of electrons only a few electrons thick, tangent to the surface of the sun (though high above it). The oblong cloud of electrons flow through it along the normal vector (though I guess it wouldn&#039;t have to be perfectly orthogonal... the deviation from 90 degrees would depend on exactly how thick the cloud was).  So, He(2+) ions fly through, but can only grab one electron because of the thinness of the field.  Protons, on the other hand, become neutral hydrogen molecules and continue on their resent course.  Also, hopefully the electrons wouldn&#039;t become exhausted as the positive ion cloud passed through, as repulsion between electrons would fill the gap.

I don&#039;t know much about solar physics, so I don&#039;t know if this is likely or even possible, but maybe it&#039;s an explanation?

And sorry for taking so much space up... I apparently lack focus ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, so it should be statistically less likely, but there still should be some measurable amount of neutral He, especially because the helium nucleus would pull on electrons with twice the force of a proton.  And then, once it had captured the first electron, it would then pull on the second electron with the same force as a proton (hydrogen nucleus) would.</p>
<p>This is what I&#039;m picturing:</p>
<p>He nuclei &amp; protons pass through the cloud of electrons at a very high speed.  Initially, the He nuclei exert a greater force on the electrons, so you get a 2:1 ratio of He(1-) to H(0).  However, the instant that any He(1-) is created, it begins acting like a proton, so you would think that the first few He(1-) to form (molecules on the leading edge of the ion cloud) would still have a good number of electrons to pick from to make it to He(0), as they passed through the cloud of electrons.</p>
<p>Actually, come to think of it there might still be an answer.  I&#039;m picturing the two clouds of opposing ions as sort of oblong shapes, flowing into and through each other head on, as they should be traveling in anti-parallel directions (as the E field pushes one in a given direction and pulls the other in the opposite direction).  However, if the electron could was wide but only a few atoms thick, the He (1-) wouldn&#039;t have a chance to become neutral, because grabbing just one electron would mean that it was already through the cloud&#8230;</p>
<p>ok, so now THIS is what I&#039;m picturing:</p>
<p>a sort of plane of electrons only a few electrons thick, tangent to the surface of the sun (though high above it). The oblong cloud of electrons flow through it along the normal vector (though I guess it wouldn&#039;t have to be perfectly orthogonal&#8230; the deviation from 90 degrees would depend on exactly how thick the cloud was).  So, He(2+) ions fly through, but can only grab one electron because of the thinness of the field.  Protons, on the other hand, become neutral hydrogen molecules and continue on their resent course.  Also, hopefully the electrons wouldn&#039;t become exhausted as the positive ion cloud passed through, as repulsion between electrons would fill the gap.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t know much about solar physics, so I don&#039;t know if this is likely or even possible, but maybe it&#039;s an explanation?</p>
<p>And sorry for taking so much space up&#8230; I apparently lack focus <img src='http://www.universetoday.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Excalibur</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46621</link>
		<dc:creator>Excalibur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46621</guid>
		<description>Bill, about not detecting neutral helium.

This is a wild shot in the dark, but...

1. During the flare, both hydrogen and helium are stripped of the electrons
2. The chance for a proton to recapture 1 electron is much larger than the chance that the helium nuclei will recapture 2 electrons, and as long as the atoms are inonized they are slowed by the magnetic feld.
3. As soon as the atom is neutralised, it moves freely of the magnetic field, separating out the hydrogen faster than the helium.

This can only be true if the subsequent flood of charged particles include both hydrogen and helium, wich the article doesnt mention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, about not detecting neutral helium.</p>
<p>This is a wild shot in the dark, but&#8230;</p>
<p>1. During the flare, both hydrogen and helium are stripped of the electrons<br />
2. The chance for a proton to recapture 1 electron is much larger than the chance that the helium nuclei will recapture 2 electrons, and as long as the atoms are inonized they are slowed by the magnetic feld.<br />
3. As soon as the atom is neutralised, it moves freely of the magnetic field, separating out the hydrogen faster than the helium.</p>
<p>This can only be true if the subsequent flood of charged particles include both hydrogen and helium, wich the article doesnt mention.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill S</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46583</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46583</guid>
		<description>Is a simpler explanation that the pure hydrogen atoms were stripped off hydrogen gas normally held by gravity, and were then enabled to escape during this flare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is a simpler explanation that the pure hydrogen atoms were stripped off hydrogen gas normally held by gravity, and were then enabled to escape during this flare.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46543</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46543</guid>
		<description>Given that this burst of hydrogen within or resulting from a flare is somethig that we did not know about, and given that that it is unlikely that this is the first time in the Sun&#039;s history that this has happened, what does this do to age estimates and claims of pristine surfaces for solar System objects? While having a more complete picture of natural processes is great, I can&#039;t help but think that at least one Solar System scientist is doing a bit of cussing today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that this burst of hydrogen within or resulting from a flare is somethig that we did not know about, and given that that it is unlikely that this is the first time in the Sun&#039;s history that this has happened, what does this do to age estimates and claims of pristine surfaces for solar System objects? While having a more complete picture of natural processes is great, I can&#039;t help but think that at least one Solar System scientist is doing a bit of cussing today.</p>
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		<title>By: Vino</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46520</link>
		<dc:creator>Vino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46520</guid>
		<description>@Bill, Thats exactly my first thought too... Y is it that they didnt detect these particles before... But i just read through STEREO webpage and found that they have this specialised instrument to just study the ion particles in the solar wind... But i dont know whether any other instrument has this particle analyser as well...
Still it is a very interesting result indeed!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bill, Thats exactly my first thought too&#8230; Y is it that they didnt detect these particles before&#8230; But i just read through STEREO webpage and found that they have this specialised instrument to just study the ion particles in the solar wind&#8230; But i dont know whether any other instrument has this particle analyser as well&#8230;<br />
Still it is a very interesting result indeed!!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill L.</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46517</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46517</guid>
		<description>If there is such a (relatively) simple explanation for this, why is it that we haven&#039;t observed this sort of thing before?  It seems like some amount of radiative recombination/charge exchange should occur with most solar flares...

I know that STEREO has only been up there since 2006, but haven&#039;t there been other instruments available to do this kind of work before now?

And then one last thing, but if there are enough electrons hanging to be captured by passing protons to form noticeable amounts of hydrogen, and if helium nuclei are present in the plasma, wouldn&#039;t we see at least some neutral helium?  

I know that it would be significantly less, as it would have to capture two electrons rather than one.  Maybe the intense plasma conditions favor full ionization (if that&#039;s the right word) and reduce everything down into protons rather than nuclei, or maybe the radiative recombination/charge exchange process is more complex than just a positive thing grabbing a negative thing as it shoots by, and this added complexity prevents neutral He from forming.  I have no idea.

Either way, thanks in advance for the answers, and hooray science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there is such a (relatively) simple explanation for this, why is it that we haven&#039;t observed this sort of thing before?  It seems like some amount of radiative recombination/charge exchange should occur with most solar flares&#8230;</p>
<p>I know that STEREO has only been up there since 2006, but haven&#039;t there been other instruments available to do this kind of work before now?</p>
<p>And then one last thing, but if there are enough electrons hanging to be captured by passing protons to form noticeable amounts of hydrogen, and if helium nuclei are present in the plasma, wouldn&#039;t we see at least some neutral helium?  </p>
<p>I know that it would be significantly less, as it would have to capture two electrons rather than one.  Maybe the intense plasma conditions favor full ionization (if that&#039;s the right word) and reduce everything down into protons rather than nuclei, or maybe the radiative recombination/charge exchange process is more complex than just a positive thing grabbing a negative thing as it shoots by, and this added complexity prevents neutral He from forming.  I have no idea.</p>
<p>Either way, thanks in advance for the answers, and hooray science.</p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46510</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46510</guid>
		<description>Pure hydrogen, Nice. 

Spaceship with a Big scoop. Seems that where there is a sun you have all the fuel you need. 

But do you? 

I wonder if the concentrations of hydrogen released could be harvested? 

Hypothetically, given a Plasma Engine like VASIMR, potentially powered by a nuclear reactor like the one being looked at in the Prometheus project.  That uses Hydrogen or helium as fuel.

I&#039;m wondering if you could use such outbursts as a source of fuel.?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pure hydrogen, Nice. </p>
<p>Spaceship with a Big scoop. Seems that where there is a sun you have all the fuel you need. </p>
<p>But do you? </p>
<p>I wonder if the concentrations of hydrogen released could be harvested? </p>
<p>Hypothetically, given a Plasma Engine like VASIMR, potentially powered by a nuclear reactor like the one being looked at in the Prometheus project.  That uses Hydrogen or helium as fuel.</p>
<p>I&#039;m wondering if you could use such outbursts as a source of fuel.?</p>
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		<title>By: Timber</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46507</link>
		<dc:creator>Timber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46507</guid>
		<description>Actually he is Terence Witt on another prepublication test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually he is Terence Witt on another prepublication test.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46503</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46503</guid>
		<description>:D

Sooooo... . . anyone wanna talk physics? I have a pile of solar physics counter arguments under my desk, ready to be unleashed. However, I had no counter argument for the strange comment left by the guy at the back of the class... 

Ho hum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://www.universetoday.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Sooooo&#8230; . . anyone wanna talk physics? I have a pile of solar physics counter arguments under my desk, ready to be unleashed. However, I had no counter argument for the strange comment left by the guy at the back of the class&#8230; </p>
<p>Ho hum</p>
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		<title>By: Yael Dragwyla</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46502</link>
		<dc:creator>Yael Dragwyla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46502</guid>
		<description>Whoops -- I said &quot;towfer,&quot; but meant &quot;twofwer.&quot;  Sorry for the typo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops &#8212; I said &#034;towfer,&#034; but meant &#034;twofwer.&#034;  Sorry for the typo.</p>
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		<title>By: Yael Dragwyla</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46501</link>
		<dc:creator>Yael Dragwyla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46501</guid>
		<description>Well, thanks to trolls, we not only get to learn about cutting-edge astronomical and cosmological science, but also about psychopathology.  A towfer! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, thanks to trolls, we not only get to learn about cutting-edge astronomical and cosmological science, but also about psychopathology.  A towfer! <img src='http://www.universetoday.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Trippy</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46490</link>
		<dc:creator>Trippy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46490</guid>
		<description>Not only is he a troll, but he&#039;s a troll thats formerly been banned from the BAUT forum (according to his blog).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only is he a troll, but he&#039;s a troll thats formerly been banned from the BAUT forum (according to his blog).</p>
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		<title>By: Excalibur</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46488</link>
		<dc:creator>Excalibur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 04:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46488</guid>
		<description>&quot;Can&#039;t we just forget about The Plasma Universe and talk about gravity more? LOL @ gravity. Plasma: the other 99.99% of the universe.&quot;

A sentence formed neither to educate nor to discuss, and certainly made to provoke - hence, a Troll.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#034;Can&#039;t we just forget about The Plasma Universe and talk about gravity more? LOL @ gravity. Plasma: the other 99.99% of the universe.&#034;</p>
<p>A sentence formed neither to educate nor to discuss, and certainly made to provoke &#8211; hence, a Troll.</p>
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		<title>By: tacitus</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46483</link>
		<dc:creator>tacitus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46483</guid>
		<description>Stop trolling Oil.  From looking at your blog, I see you actually believe the nonsense you spout in the comments on this board -- I&#039;ve heard of global warming deniers, but never before have I heard of someone who denies the existence of gravity (and about 90% of the rest of reality).

It would be nice if the site admins would take action on messages like yours -- they simply disrupt the topics you post them in.  (Psst admins, you can delete this one along with his).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stop trolling Oil.  From looking at your blog, I see you actually believe the nonsense you spout in the comments on this board &#8212; I&#039;ve heard of global warming deniers, but never before have I heard of someone who denies the existence of gravity (and about 90% of the rest of reality).</p>
<p>It would be nice if the site admins would take action on messages like yours &#8212; they simply disrupt the topics you post them in.  (Psst admins, you can delete this one along with his).</p>
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		<title>By: OilIsMastery</title>
		<link>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/15/the-neutral-hydrogen-gun-a-new-solar-flare-phenomenon/comment-page-1/#comment-46482</link>
		<dc:creator>OilIsMastery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 02:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.universetoday.com/?p=22335#comment-46482</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t we just forget about The Plasma Universe and talk about gravity more?  LOL @ gravity.  Plasma: the other 99.99% of the universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#039;t we just forget about The Plasma Universe and talk about gravity more?  LOL @ gravity.  Plasma: the other 99.99% of the universe.</p>
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