Comments on: The Christmas Star – Fact or Fiction?

By: cosmotheoro

cosmotheoro — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:42:01 +0000

Colombian astronomer said that 10 years before that australian cientific. Astronomer autodidact German Puerta Restrepo book :
GUIA PARA VIAJEROS DEL CIELO 1997.

By: Ranold

Ranold — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:12:04 +0000

In the Qur'an (holy book of Muslims) the story of the birth of baby Jesus is stated in the following verses:

"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen to screen herself from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from thee to Allah Most Gracious: come not near if thou dost fear Allah. He said: Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, to announce to thee the gift of a holy son. She said: How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be: Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me. And we wish to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us: It is a matter so decreed. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried in her anguish: Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight! But a voice cried to her from beneath the palm-tree: Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. So eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, I have vowed a fast to Allah Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being. At length she brought the babe to her people, carrying him in her arms. They said: O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste! But she pointed to the babe. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; He hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life again! Such was Jesus the son of Mary: it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the coming Judgment of a Momentous Day!" (Qur'an 19:16-37)

The verse that got my attention is the one states:
"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee." (Qur'an 19:25)

Ripe dates are widely known for it's season, which starts in the summer of June and ends in September.

I thought it was something interesting to know.

By: Robin P

Robin P — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:30:47 +0000

Sorry!My bad it was the 17th!

By: Robin P

Robin P — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:03:36 +0000

According to my research, Venus and Jupiter WERE indeed very close on 16th June 2002…however they were also very close to the Sun and only would have been visible at sunset.
Hardly a fixed point for any 'Magi' to follow though.

By: Andrew James

Andrew James — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:39:03 +0000

David said… "Fascinating. If accurate, this sheds some light on the Gospel mystery of Herod's slaughter of the innocence. The story goes that all boys under 2 in the area were executed based on the King's questioning of the Magi about when the star first appeared."

Yeah. but where's he proof. Glib response to support as if the story is true. Good propaganda if you ask me.

By: David

David — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:30:28 +0000

Fascinating. If accurate, this sheds some light on the Gospel mystery of Herod's slaughter of the innocence. The story goes that all boys under 2 in the area were executed based on the King's questioning of the Magi about when the star first appeared.

By: Kaje

Kaje — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:08:56 +0000

I feel the article is referring to the fact that at least two major world religions have used that particular star as part of their formation stories.

The Sun's impact is obvious!

By: Joe M.

Joe M. — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:08:58 +0000

"it has had more impact on humankind than any star before or since." What about the sun? Has it had no impact on our daily lives what so ever?

By: Niel Crafford

Niel Crafford — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:23:06 +0000

Christ was born between BC what and AD when? If he was still alive today he would be some confused child.

By: Andrew James

Andrew James — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:38:15 +0000

Correction.

I made below the follow assumption, which is not correct.
Dave Reneke was the actual editor of the now defunct Sky and Space magazine and NOT Australian Sky and Telescope, which is not associated with him or these views.

"I don't wish to be cynical, but Australian Sky and Telescope is certainly gain some great free notoriety – no doubt selling more magazines. After reading this, especially as Roger Sinott also published a similar story in Sky and Telescope in 1968… well let's say it's not hard not to the dots."

Tammy's article wrote in the third line of bi-line as
"Australia’s Sky and", which I thought inferred when scanning the text as "Telescope Magazine" instead of "Space Magazine."
As the last issue published of Sky and Space was in November 2007, this is an easy assumption to conclude.

My unreserved apologies to "Australian Sky and Telescope" for the incorrect inference. No offence was intended.

By: Boyd

Boyd — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:01:01 +0000

Herod's death is usually referred to, as it has been in this discussion, as being 4 BC. This date has been inferred from the writings of the historian Josephus. However, it has recently been noted that the oldest manuscripts of Josephus indicate record Herod's death as 1 BC. Apparently, a sixteenth century copyist’s error is responsible for the incorrect date, which has been propagated to modern editions of Josephus. When you look before 1 BC, you'll find some very compelling astronomical events occurring. An attorney named Frederick Larson has done his homework on this and it's very interesting. I know, I know… there are a lot of wacked out theories out there, but Larson is worth listening to, no matter what your faith perspective. His web site is bethlehemstar.net. The production quality of the DVD presentation is top-notch and his subject material is well researched.

By: The Occupant

The Occupant — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:28:13 +0000

I have heard this theory before, and I prefer it to Arthur C. Clarkes story about the Star of David having being a supernova, that wiped out a civilization in the process. My personal religious belief has been that God works through the natural. If this is what happened, then it makes sense in that I don't see how other natural phenomena would have encouraged the Maji to go to Israel specifically.

By: alan

alan — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:31:15 +0000

Henry Wysmulek Your my hero!

By: Phillip Moon

Phillip Moon — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 05:31:38 +0000

The oldest books in the NT are Paul's writings. He never talks about the "events" in Matt. Mark is the oldest Gospel, and neither does he talk about any of the tales of Matt. Like most of the stories in the Gospels, they have little connection to any possible historical Jesus.

In constructing the story of Jesus' birth, Matt (or the originators of the story he borrowed) would have used details that may have occurred or been thought to occur, and that would have included any stories of bright stars. And as the fable of Herod killing children shows, Matt. was willing to make up whatever he needed to for his tale. In other words, the event of the Christmas Star need not have actually happened to find it's way into Matt.'s book, but if there were many events about the "right" time, he would have made use of them.

By: Richard Smith

Richard Smith — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:44:35 +0000

The one point of the gospel Christmas story that has bewildered me is that if it was a significant conjunction of planets, or a sudden brightening of a star, I would would think Herod and his court of experts would have seen it, as would others in Israel and other nations around the world. Our very recent conjunction of Jupiter and Venus drew much attention, and was very obvious to most people. How can such a dramatic event be so hidden? I am not having a problem with the events authenticity, but like many what is the nature of it.

By: Felipe

Felipe — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:38:56 +0000

It was Sirius. Please watch the "Zeitgeist" documentary, freely available on the internet and youtube. Worth the watch!

By: Bigjon

Bigjon — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:59:43 +0000

it was a supernova which lasted for days, only god knew this from his travels between earth and heaven but still some people believe that heaven is a Metaphor and not a place!

By: Andrew James

Andrew James — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:50:24 +0000

Sigh said;
"…this is at some points a reputable source of astronomy news,"

It might be, but it should also be reputable an acknowledge its origins. Too often new claims of "discovery" are based on more original discoveries made earlier by others. Sometimes sadly some astronomical news is really rehashing what has been established.
In a journalistic appraisal is supposed to be factual as well as being properly researched. Davis Reneke in his reply to this blog said it himself in Universe Today.
I.e. "The number of websites my story has appeared on is countless. I chuckled at a few abridged versions – one has me as a research “team leader” using “complex computer software” (its Starry Night guys) and another claims I’m trying to change the day Xmas is celebrated to June 17. Oh, I almost forgot the one where I declared Jesus to be a Gemini! Go figure."
All this shows is that controversy and aiming at the common denominator simply sells – in this case astronomy magazines or as it seems.
Really. Should general misinformation be deemed as better than well-informed and astute commentary on some controversial subject? The main problem is the subject has been debated for not only decades but centuries… but the central essential point is it ain't 'new' news. Pity it was not presented like that rather than to degenerate the faithful and split religion and science down the middle just for a popularist story-line.
Come on guys, indeed.

By: sigh

sigh — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:59:48 +0000

come on guys… it's a ~story~ and that's it. this is at some points a reputable source of astronomy news, and at other times a bunch of crap.

By: Andrew James

Andrew James — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:53:21 +0000

I being to be slightly offended with some of the posters here, especially macellus's previous statement "Oh ye, of little faith." No one really is questioning the Christian faith nor of the possibility of its supernatural occurrence as the Star of Bethlehem.
The main scientific issue here is to try and explain the existence of some observable astronomical event that might explain the phenomena.
One of the biggest fault with this whole article is the assumption that; "It's generally accepted by most researchers that Christ was born between 3 BC and 1 AD."
This actually just isn't true.
As other point out, the death of Herod the Great was in 4 AD; with his issuing of the decree of the presumed slaughter of the first born by Herod himself. Furthermore, knowledge of the 2 B.C. conjunction has been known for at least a century. It was clearly rejected by theologians, historians and scientists alike as a sign of the coming of the Messiah, because it did not match the known historical events that preceded it. Hence forth, this is why the triple conjunction of Venus, Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC has been studied so much, or of the possibility of a bright comet in 5 BC.
IMO. Whilst Australian David Reneke may have just stumbled onto this conjunction of 2 BC, it has been shown that this was already known to researches before hand. I.e. Roger Sinott in 1968.
I don't wish to be cynical, but Australian Sky and Telescope is certainly gain some great free notoriety – no doubt selling more magazines. After reading this, especially as Roger Sinott also published a similar story in Sky and Telescope in 1968… well let's say it's not hard not to the dots.

By: marcellus

marcellus — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:30:19 +0000

The Star of Bethlehem had to be something.

"Oh ye, of little faith."

By: Dr Bubo

Dr Bubo — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:28:58 +0000

Obviously it was not a star. It was something else. God only knows.

By: Ralph Rewes

Ralph Rewes — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:14:13 +0000

What a waste of time and minds.

By: Andrew Walsh

Andrew Walsh — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:38:21 +0000

Stellarium doesn't seem to backup these conjunctions.

By: Helio George

Helio George — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:42:59 +0000

Things to consider…

1) Whatever was seen by the "wise men", possibly three of them (as there were three gifts presented), had to be seen before Herod's death, which came in 4 BC.

2) No bright astronomical object will shine upon any given town, assuming no Divine intervention. However, astronomers/astrologers could assume Israel would be the place to look if the "star" were in a constellation associated with Israel: Aries is one of them.

This would explain two things:
a) Why they had to stop in Jersualem and get directions.
b) Why they were called "wise men", and probably by women.