Comments on: Helium Leak Forces LHC Shutdown for at Least Two Months http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/ Space and astronomy news Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:39:08 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Estuardo http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33585 Estuardo Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:47:24 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33585 It looks like you have changed the temperature increase to 100C, but you still state that the magnets were hot enough to boil water. Can you change it to whatever boils at -173C? :o) It looks like you have changed the temperature increase to 100C, but you still state that the magnets were hot enough to boil water. Can you change it to whatever boils at -173C? :o )

]]> By: mitkilurt http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33563 mitkilurt Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:23:43 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33563 Oh thank god.... or what ever most physicists believe in now days. Here I was just waiting, any day now, for an event horizon to show up in my neighborhood to suck my house into a point of infinite density formally known as the LHC. Now though, I've got a two, (more likely eight), month reprieve thanks to obvious sabotage by a concerned scientist. I can finish reading my new book, and enjoy the fall foliage here in Kansas, which really just means watch the grass turn brown. So live it up people, we're on borrowed time! If the black hole doesn't get you, then 2012 certainly will. (Don't forget, 2012 is another election year, end times for sure) Oh thank god…. or what ever most physicists believe in now days. Here I was just waiting, any day now, for an event horizon to show up in my neighborhood to suck my house into a point of infinite density formally known as the LHC. Now though, I've got a two, (more likely eight), month reprieve thanks to obvious sabotage by a concerned scientist. I can finish reading my new book, and enjoy the fall foliage here in Kansas, which really just means watch the grass turn brown. So live it up people, we're on borrowed time! If the black hole doesn't get you, then 2012 certainly will. (Don't forget, 2012 is another election year, end times for sure)

]]> By: Don Alexander http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33551 Don Alexander Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:05:04 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33551 @mcenhillk: Thanks for the answer!! And I should say, venting ultracold helium gas will additionally cause, due to the highly non-adiabatic expansion of the gas, the vent to cool down vent faster. Reminds me of the greatest non-physicist I ever met. :D Guy at a retirment home was teaching us safety precautions for, I think, oxygen tanks? Anyway, he has this pressurized bottle with gas in it, opens the valve, whoooosh, and the valve suddenly gets frost on it. His explanation: "Because the gas in the pressure tank is at ABSOLUTE ZERO, IF NOT EVEN BELOW THAT." I actually did not really understand why the valve cooled down so rapidly back then. But heck, yeah, I was sure that a liquid gas in a metal tank is going to be at room temperature... @mcenhillk: Thanks for the answer!!

And I should say, venting ultracold helium gas will additionally cause, due to the highly non-adiabatic expansion of the gas, the vent to cool down vent faster.

Reminds me of the greatest non-physicist I ever met. :D Guy at a retirment home was teaching us safety precautions for, I think, oxygen tanks? Anyway, he has this pressurized bottle with gas in it, opens the valve, whoooosh, and the valve suddenly gets frost on it.

His explanation: "Because the gas in the pressure tank is at ABSOLUTE ZERO, IF NOT EVEN BELOW THAT."

I actually did not really understand why the valve cooled down so rapidly back then. But heck, yeah, I was sure that a liquid gas in a metal tank is going to be at room temperature…

]]> By: ZardozBigHead http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33538 ZardozBigHead Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:51:58 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33538 Michael, is this in any way related to the generation of magnetic fields by electrical vortexes? Michael, is this in any way related to the generation of magnetic fields by electrical vortexes?

]]> By: Michael Gmirkin http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33528 Michael Gmirkin Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:40:00 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33528 Lest anyone forgets, this isn't the first major failure of LHC... (Particle Collider Magnet Failure Blamed on Faulty Engineering) www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=particle-collider-magnet Regards, ~Michael Gmirkin Lest anyone forgets, this isn't the first major failure of LHC…

(Particle Collider Magnet Failure Blamed on Faulty Engineering)
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=particle-collider-magnet

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin

]]> By: some dumb kid http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33520 some dumb kid Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:40:05 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33520 man they had put the black hole fears to rest, finally got rossler and wagner to STFU, and were getting ready to do some actual science. and now this happens! oh well i supose a device this size there are a million thing that could break man they had put the black hole fears to rest, finally got rossler and wagner to STFU, and were getting ready to do some actual science. and now this happens! oh well i supose a device this size there are a million thing that could break

]]> By: kandykane http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33517 kandykane Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:37:44 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33517 Astrophysical implications of hypothetical stable TeV-scale black holes Authors: Steven B. Giddings, Michelangelo M. Mangano (Submitted on 20 Jun 2008) Abstract: We analyze macroscopic effects of TeV-scale black holes, such as could possibly be produced at the LHC, in what is regarded as an extremely hypothetical scenario in which they are stable and, if trapped inside Earth, begin to accrete matter. We examine a wide variety of TeV-scale gravity scenarios, basing the resulting accretion models on first-principles, basic, and well-tested physical laws. These scenarios fall into two classes, depending on whether accretion could have any macroscopic effect on the Earth at times shorter than the Sun's natural lifetime. We argue that cases with such effect at shorter times than the solar lifetime are ruled out, since in these scenarios black holes produced by cosmic rays impinging on much denser white dwarfs and neutron stars would then catalyze their decay on timescales incompatible with their known lifetimes. We also comment on relevant lifetimes for astronomical objects that capture primordial black holes. In short, this study finds no basis for concerns that TeV-scale black holes from the LHC could pose a risk to Earth on time scales shorter than the Earth's natural lifetime. Indeed, conservative arguments based on detailed calculations and the best-available scientific knowledge, including solid astronomical data, conclude, from multiple perspectives, that there is no risk of any significance whatsoever from such black holes. Subjects: High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph); Astrophysics (astro-ph); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); High Energy Physics - Experiment (hep-ex); High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th) Report number: CERN-PH-TH/2008-025 Cite as: arXiv:0806.3381v1 [hep-ph] Submission history From: Michelangelo Mangano [view email] [v1] Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:57:24 GMT (222kb,D) http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381 Astrophysical implications of hypothetical stable TeV-scale black holes

Authors: Steven B. Giddings, Michelangelo M. Mangano

(Submitted on 20 Jun 2008)

Abstract: We analyze macroscopic effects of TeV-scale black holes, such as could possibly be produced at the LHC, in what is regarded as an extremely hypothetical scenario in which they are stable and, if trapped inside Earth, begin to accrete matter.

We examine a wide variety of TeV-scale gravity scenarios, basing the resulting accretion models on first-principles, basic, and well-tested physical laws. These scenarios fall into two classes, depending on whether accretion could have any macroscopic effect on the Earth at times shorter than the Sun's natural lifetime.

We argue that cases with such effect at shorter times than the solar lifetime are ruled out, since in these scenarios black holes produced by cosmic rays impinging on much denser white dwarfs and neutron stars would then catalyze their decay on timescales incompatible with their known lifetimes. We also comment on relevant lifetimes for astronomical objects that capture primordial black holes.

In short, this study finds no basis for concerns that TeV-scale black holes from the LHC could pose a risk to Earth on time scales shorter than the Earth's natural lifetime. Indeed, conservative arguments based on detailed calculations and the best-available scientific knowledge, including solid astronomical data, conclude, from multiple perspectives, that there is no risk of any significance whatsoever from such black holes.

Subjects: High Energy Physics – Phenomenology (hep-ph); Astrophysics (astro-ph); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); High Energy Physics – Experiment (hep-ex); High Energy Physics – Theory (hep-th)

Report number: CERN-PH-TH/2008-025

Cite as: arXiv:0806.3381v1 [hep-ph]

Submission history

From: Michelangelo Mangano [view email]

[v1] Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:57:24 GMT (222kb,D)

http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381

]]> By: zifferman http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33513 zifferman Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:49:00 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33513 Check out the novel Einstein's Bridge, about a parallel universe where the Superconducting Super Collider (SSC) was built and operated. The SSC somehow made beings in another universe aware of us, and they aren't too happy with the idea of others existing even in another universe. So the scientists have to find a way to make the SSC never happen so we don't get wiped out. Hmmmm - of course, the SSC was much bigger than the LHC, so maybe we are still safe. Check out the novel Einstein's Bridge, about a parallel universe where the Superconducting Super Collider (SSC) was built and operated. The SSC somehow made beings in another universe aware of us, and they aren't too happy with the idea of others existing even in another universe.

So the scientists have to find a way to make the SSC never happen so we don't get wiped out.

Hmmmm – of course, the SSC was much bigger than the LHC, so maybe we are still safe.

]]> By: Pauly http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33506 Pauly Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:27:27 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33506 <i># Unbeliever Says: September 20th, 2008 at 10:47 pm can you say "sabotage" ?</i> ROFLMAO # Unbeliever Says:
September 20th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

can you say "sabotage" ?

ROFLMAO

]]> By: pantzov http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33493 pantzov Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:21:41 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33493 haha that webcam link was awsome. i love the purple tinge to the front of it. haha that webcam link was awsome.
i love the purple tinge to the front of it.

]]> By: Ian O'Neill http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-2/#comment-33482 Ian O'Neill Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:58:45 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33482 Hi Dave, You're totally right, corrected now... Cheers! Ian :D Hi Dave,

You're totally right, corrected now…

Cheers! Ian :D

]]> By: Astrofiend http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33481 Astrofiend Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:55:49 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33481 I would have been amazed if something like this didn't happen. The complexity of the apparatus in incredible. I just hope that the quality control has been top notch enough that this is an isolated incident. A failure so early on would tend to suggest otherwise though, and if so there may be many more such events... Ho hum - I was thoroughly looking forward to the first collisions... I would have been amazed if something like this didn't happen. The complexity of the apparatus in incredible. I just hope that the quality control has been top notch enough that this is an isolated incident. A failure so early on would tend to suggest otherwise though, and if so there may be many more such events…

Ho hum – I was thoroughly looking forward to the first collisions…

]]> By: Gaelynsgirl http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33465 Gaelynsgirl Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:15:41 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33465 Kind of reminds me of the early days of Hubble! Once the glitches are ironed out, I'm sure the LHC will deliver up a Higgs boson with as much excitement as (or more than) the 'resolved' Hubble problems have provided for observational astronomers. Hang in there you particle physicists. Your time will come! Kind of reminds me of the early days of Hubble! Once the glitches are ironed out, I'm sure the LHC will deliver up a Higgs boson with as much excitement as (or more than) the 'resolved' Hubble problems have provided for observational astronomers. Hang in there you particle physicists. Your time will come!

]]> By: Richard http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33456 Richard Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:25:45 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33456 Hope they can get it working soon, ready to see what it will do. Hope they can get it working soon, ready to see what it will do.

]]> By: Dave http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33448 Dave Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:39:09 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33448 I think maybe the temperature went up BY 100 C rather than TO 100 C. I think maybe the temperature went up BY 100 C rather than TO 100 C.

]]> By: Vanamonde http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33441 Vanamonde Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:37:08 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33441 "Saved the drama for your mamma" This is a new machine - never has their been any cyrogenic device on this scale. Stuff happens. Stuff will happens again. I'm disappointed but these thing teach and I am sure CERN will overcome this setbeck. Research the early days of space flight and the ole Vanguard project! Or the many attempts to land a craft on the Moon (the Ranger program). This is just was complex...if not more. "Saved the drama for your mamma" This is a new machine – never has their been any cyrogenic device on this scale. Stuff happens. Stuff will happens again. I'm disappointed but these thing teach and I am sure CERN will overcome this setbeck. Research the early days of space flight and the ole Vanguard project! Or the many attempts to land a craft on the Moon (the Ranger program). This is just was complex…if not more.

]]> By: Ian O'Neill http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33436 Ian O'Neill Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:25:15 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33436 Lol!! That's too funny Tammy. I <i>almost</i> got a little worried, thinking a black hole was going to open up under me.... great vid!! Cheers, Ian :D Lol!! That's too funny Tammy. I almost got a little worried, thinking a black hole was going to open up under me…. great vid!!

Cheers, Ian :D

]]> By: Vino http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33420 Vino Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:16:50 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33420 @Tammy: thanks for a wonderful video.... @Tammy: thanks for a wonderful video….

]]> By: alandee http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33415 alandee Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:57:00 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33415 I'm guessing your all saying all of these things with high squeaky voices ! .. that is helium right ? /ignorance .. I'm guessing your all saying all of these things with high squeaky voices !

.. that is helium right ?

/ignorance ..

]]> By: mcenhillk http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33411 mcenhillk Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:24:52 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33411 @Don Alexander: I think the cryostat had a total internal volume of 150l. It had something to do with the fact that we flipped the cyclotron 360 degrees around the patient. With that volume and 64,000l of gas, things get "sporty". The nice thing about helium is it's compressibility. Instead of a detonation and it's associated shock wave, we got a quick pressurization. The burst plate popped at 5psi so it blew very quickly. This opened up a 2" vent to the outside of the building. The only thing that could hurt those of us working on system is holding on to that vent during a quench. Nothing give you frost bite faster than holding on to a copper pipe that is venting 20K helium. :-) @Don Alexander: I think the cryostat had a total internal volume of 150l. It had something to do with the fact that we flipped the cyclotron 360 degrees around the patient. With that volume and 64,000l of gas, things get "sporty". The nice thing about helium is it's compressibility. Instead of a detonation and it's associated shock wave, we got a quick pressurization. The burst plate popped at 5psi so it blew very quickly. This opened up a 2" vent to the outside of the building. The only thing that could hurt those of us working on system is holding on to that vent during a quench. Nothing give you frost bite faster than holding on to a copper pipe that is venting 20K helium. :-)

]]> By: Unbeliever http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33410 Unbeliever Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:47:59 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33410 can you say "sabotage" ? can you say "sabotage" ?

]]> By: marcellus http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33409 marcellus Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:47:26 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33409 Black holes, the 2012 doomsday prediction, the annual euchre tournament at the Cydonian complex on Mars..... Where will it all end? Black holes, the 2012 doomsday prediction, the annual euchre tournament at the Cydonian complex on Mars…..

Where will it all end?

]]> By: littlerobin http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33407 littlerobin Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:38:10 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33407 question: I have a more practical one. If the LHC does indeed produce a mini black hole, could we then prove that Hawking radiation exists? If so, what would be the consequences? answer: It is possible. The eventual end of every black hole could well be the same evaporation that will be seen with the quantum effects that should be the result of these mini-black-holes as they disappear. The possible problems in detecting them, however, are enormous. Not only is the "black hole" only supposed to last for about 0,00000000000000000000000001 seconds, the measurement process is still in the theoretical stage. There's also the possibility that the Hadron collision might not produce a black hole. At this point that is still only a theoretical possibility. question:
I have a more practical one. If the LHC does indeed produce a mini black hole, could we then prove that Hawking radiation exists? If so, what would be the consequences?

answer:
It is possible. The eventual end of every black hole could well be the same evaporation that will be seen with the quantum effects that should be the result of these mini-black-holes as they disappear. The possible problems in detecting them, however, are enormous. Not only is the "black hole" only supposed to last for about 0,00000000000000000000000001 seconds, the measurement process is still in the theoretical stage. There's also the possibility that the Hadron collision might not produce a black hole. At this point that is still only a theoretical possibility.

]]> By: darko http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33405 darko Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:07:19 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33405 now wht? black hole!suck'em brain! ~_~ now wht?

black hole!suck'em brain!

~_~

]]> By: Don Alexander http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/20/helium-leak-forces-lhc-shutdown-for-at-least-two-months/comment-page-1/#comment-33403 Don Alexander Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:52:52 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=18390#comment-33403 NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! I am in denial... :( We wait years and years, and then they FINALLY have it up and starting to run, and it breaks... Well, now we can create some anti-conspiracy theorist theories, as in: The I-fear-the-black-hole-will-eat-me-ers lainched a terrorist attack on the LHC!!! @mcenhillk: Great post, very informative! I do have a question/observation. If you have 80l of LHe, each l gives you 800l of gas, that's 64,000l of gas or 64 cubic meters or a cube of 4 meters side length. I half a second?? Sounds pretty much like a small explosion!! Not to mention the fact that the oxygen would be gone... NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

I am in denial… :(

We wait years and years, and then they FINALLY have it up and starting to run, and it breaks…

Well, now we can create some anti-conspiracy theorist theories, as in:

The I-fear-the-black-hole-will-eat-me-ers lainched a terrorist attack on the LHC!!!

@mcenhillk: Great post, very informative!

I do have a question/observation. If you have 80l of LHe, each l gives you 800l of gas, that's 64,000l of gas or 64 cubic meters or a cube of 4 meters side length.

I half a second?? Sounds pretty much like a small explosion!! Not to mention the fact that the oxygen would be gone…

]]>