Comments on: Reaching for the Ring: M57 by Dietmar Hager http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/ Space and astronomy news Sun, 8 Nov 2009 08:15:54 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Walter http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-28086 Walter Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:27:59 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-28086 last night as i was sitting outside looking at the sky as i do every night the smoke i blew out ( as i was thinking of my dearly departed mother) turned into a 9" perfect diameter red velvet inner ring with a gold, brightest gold outer ring . It happened seven times in a row, all of them seemingly going up so high and disapearing what seemed like ten miles up, i ran inside woke my wife came back down, blew smoke and it was just smoke, my mind is in tact and i know what i saw. Was this a gas in the air thing or a sign. the wind was blowing side to side but these rings were clear and apeared six feet from my face and rose to the heavens , please contact me at graniteworldutah @hotmail if you can explain this, thank you, walter last night as i was sitting outside looking at the sky as i do every night the smoke i blew out ( as i was thinking of my dearly departed mother) turned into a 9" perfect diameter red velvet inner ring with a gold, brightest gold outer ring . It happened seven times in a row, all of them seemingly going up so high and disapearing what seemed like ten miles up, i ran inside woke my wife came back down, blew smoke and it was just smoke, my mind is in tact and i know what i saw. Was this a gas in the air thing or a sign. the wind was blowing side to side but these rings were clear and apeared six feet from my face and rose to the heavens , please contact me at graniteworldutah @hotmail if you can explain this, thank you, walter

]]> By: Cherry http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-28058 Cherry Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:48:45 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-28058 http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/m57-crop.jpg are those faint galaxies near M57? http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/m57-crop.jpg are those faint galaxies near M57?

]]> By: Jon Hanford http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24918 Jon Hanford Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:07:44 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24918 By the way, the prominent spiral to the upper right of M 57 is IC 1296. Also, notice several faint, anonymous galaxies also visible in the field. Congrats to Dr Hager not only for the ultra-deep exposures obtained for this color composite but also his apparent skill in processing these images to produce this thrilling image. I've been a longtime fan of your astroimages. Keep up the good work. By the way, the prominent spiral to the upper right of M 57 is IC 1296. Also, notice several faint, anonymous galaxies also visible in the field. Congrats to Dr Hager not only for the ultra-deep exposures obtained for this color composite but also his apparent skill in processing these images to produce this thrilling image. I've been a longtime fan of your astroimages. Keep up the good work.

]]> By: Dietmar http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24734 Dietmar Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:25:40 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24734 hello friends of the celestial wonders, first off let me thank you Tammy for this great distinction, chosing one of my images for an article in UT. as this is the second story around one of my images, I do have high hopes, this is gonna become a sort of "tradition"... :) secondly, thanks everyone for the nice comments, which I do appreciate very much! light buckett or not... well, it is a matter of what we want. deep field or high resolved images. deep field will always be the domain of super fast astrographs (f/3 - or even faster) and yet provide its operator with a huge flat field of view. but in high resolved deep sky imaging, I think a non obstructed apo-optics is better: it is a commonly held "biased thought" - or even a prejudice" in many "astro-imaging-brains" that a huge light buckett in terms of - let's say 14 or 16" RC - is mandatory when it comes to high resolved deep sky imaginng. IMHO it is not! this policy of deep sky imaging origins back in those days, when unobstructed apochromatic optics were simply not availabe,...at least not for us amateurs. now they are! and as you see - hopefully - 9" of such an apochromatic refractor are more than suffice to reach out for faint details in deep sky objects such as nebulae and galaxies. 9"es are capable of imaging at a high resolved level way below 1 arc second; a decent focal length granted, of course! and most of the time, at least at my observatorie's place, seeing is less well than 1 arc second... certainly these 9"es need to be of perfect shape in terms of optical quality. apochromatic optics in refractors do have 2 major advantages which a mirror-scope does not have: - the contrast power is at maximum - no mirror scope can catch up (except for a "schief-spiegler maybe...) - there are no spike-artefacts! these spike artefacts that are typical for mirror scopes come from the spider-like construction that holds the secondary mirror. around bright stars, these spikes are very well visible. many people tend to forget that these artefacts are also affecting faint and tiny details, and therefore also have an impact on the image created by such an optics. the spikes are cast around the tiny details as well, certainly, and these very details might get hurt... a perfect apo does not suffer from that. this is just a couple explanations, why a 9" apo can easily equal a 16" RC in resolving-power... is this too much of provocation? I do not intend to provoke at all. it is a fact. but in amateur astro-photography, it does not make a significant difference in terms of resolution of details, if you use a 16" RC or a 9" apo. seeing will mostly never provide you with conditions, that let you tak all advantage of the theoretical higher resolution power of a larger optics! we are limited to earth's athmosphere. certainly the big advantage of huge light bucketts is you can operate these systems at very fast focal length and yet gain a huge flat field of view,...but the price for this is the contrast, which we do need. also larger mirrors can more easily operate at higher focal length: 20" f/8 results in 4m FL. if I want to operate my system at 4m (which I do!) I have to use a high quality barlow lens, and focal ratio goes down,...to f/18; making my system very slow...but thanks to sensitive CCDs, it is possible! so, inferring from my personal experience , and also many of my apo-collegues have showed as well, purchasing a huge apo is not only an alternative to a big mirror scope - it is the very best choice in the first place! be well, Dietmar Hager F.R.A.S. www.stargazer-observatory.com hello friends of the celestial wonders,

first off let me thank you Tammy for this great distinction, chosing one of my images for an article in UT.
as this is the second story around one of my images, I do have high hopes, this is gonna become a sort of "tradition"… :)

secondly,
thanks everyone for the nice comments, which I do appreciate very much!

light buckett or not…
well, it is a matter of what we want.
deep field or high resolved images.
deep field will always be the domain of super fast astrographs (f/3 – or even faster) and yet provide its operator with a huge flat field of view.
but in high resolved deep sky imaging, I think a non obstructed apo-optics is better:
it is a commonly held "biased thought" – or even a prejudice" in many "astro-imaging-brains" that a huge light buckett in terms of – let's say 14 or 16" RC – is mandatory when it comes to high resolved deep sky imaginng.
IMHO it is not!
this policy of deep sky imaging origins back in those days, when unobstructed apochromatic optics were simply not availabe,…at least not for us amateurs.
now they are! and as you see – hopefully – 9" of such an apochromatic refractor are more than suffice to reach out for faint details in deep sky objects such as nebulae and galaxies.
9"es are capable of imaging at a high resolved level way below 1 arc second; a decent focal length granted, of course!
and most of the time, at least at my observatorie's place, seeing is less well than 1 arc second…
certainly these 9"es need to be of perfect shape in terms of optical quality.
apochromatic optics in refractors do have 2 major advantages which a mirror-scope does not have:
- the contrast power is at maximum – no mirror scope can catch up (except for a "schief-spiegler maybe…)
- there are no spike-artefacts!

these spike artefacts that are typical for mirror scopes come from the spider-like construction that holds the secondary mirror.
around bright stars, these spikes are very well visible. many people tend to forget that these artefacts are also affecting faint and tiny details, and therefore also have an impact on the image created by such an optics. the spikes are cast around the tiny details as well, certainly, and these very details might get hurt…
a perfect apo does not suffer from that.
this is just a couple explanations, why a 9" apo can easily equal a 16" RC in resolving-power…
is this too much of provocation? I do not intend to provoke at all. it is a fact.

but in amateur astro-photography, it does not make a significant difference in terms of resolution of details, if you use a 16" RC or a 9" apo. seeing will mostly never provide you with conditions, that let you tak all advantage of the theoretical higher resolution power of a larger optics! we are limited to earth's athmosphere.
certainly the big advantage of huge light bucketts is you can operate these systems at very fast focal length and yet gain a huge flat field of view,…but the price for this is the contrast, which we do need.
also larger mirrors can more easily operate at higher focal length: 20" f/8 results in 4m FL. if I want to operate my system at 4m (which I do!) I have to use a high quality barlow lens, and focal ratio goes down,…to f/18; making my system very slow…but thanks to sensitive CCDs, it is possible!

so, inferring from my personal experience , and also many of my apo-collegues have showed as well, purchasing a huge apo is not only an alternative to a big mirror scope – it is the very best choice in the first place!

be well,
Dietmar Hager
F.R.A.S.
http://www.stargazer-observatory.com

]]> By: Kootstar http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24722 Kootstar Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:42:06 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24722 Fantastic image of one of my favorite views. Also, over the few years I have been able to view with a friend and start really learnining to use the eye at the eyepiece we seem to have even noted changes in the shape of the "Ring". In 10 years or less it seems we are seeing more expansion and thinning of the edges. It seems more elongated and less distinct. We look at it often while we are out , and that is about as often as the sky will allow! Fantastic image of one of my favorite views. Also, over the few years I have been able to view with a friend and start really learnining to use the eye at the eyepiece we seem to have even noted changes in the shape of the "Ring". In 10 years or less it seems we are seeing more expansion and thinning of the edges. It seems more elongated and less distinct. We look at it often while we are out , and that is about as often as the sky will allow!

]]> By: Marco Fitzgerald http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24715 Marco Fitzgerald Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:34:12 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24715 intresting article! intresting article!

]]> By: Tammy Plotner http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24699 Tammy Plotner Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:49:15 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24699 Thank you, marcellus! Promise me the next time you look through a telescope at M57 that you'll look around for those envelopes of darkness? I was always so concerned about picking braiding out of the structure, or resolving the central that I never noticed them. It took two very good friends to point out I was missing something... and now I pass it on to you, my friend! Tom? There really are fairly inexpensive astro-imaging telescopes and camera and I thank you for encouraging others. Dr. Deits has proved that a 9" refractor telescope can give the performance of some of these huge "light bucket" telescopes - thus dispelling a commonly held misconception that bigger is always better. The amount of hours and love these fellows at MRO / AORIAI put into these images to share with others is deeply appreciated! Thank you, marcellus! Promise me the next time you look through a telescope at M57 that you'll look around for those envelopes of darkness? I was always so concerned about picking braiding out of the structure, or resolving the central that I never noticed them. It took two very good friends to point out I was missing something… and now I pass it on to you, my friend!

Tom? There really are fairly inexpensive astro-imaging telescopes and camera and I thank you for encouraging others.

Dr. Deits has proved that a 9" refractor telescope can give the performance of some of these huge "light bucket" telescopes – thus dispelling a commonly held misconception that bigger is always better.

The amount of hours and love these fellows at MRO / AORIAI put into these images to share with others is deeply appreciated!

]]> By: marcellus http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24685 marcellus Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:36:12 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24685 A great article, Tammy! I would love to see more articles that pertain to observational astronomy. A great article, Tammy! I would love to see more articles that pertain to observational astronomy.

]]> By: Tom http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24677 Tom Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:50:02 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24677 Doing amateur deep field astrophotogrpahy really isn't that hard or expensive any more. There is plenty of telescopes, cameras, mounts, books and people who can show you how it do it. All you need is the passion and the will to do it. Doing amateur deep field astrophotogrpahy really isn't that hard or expensive any more. There is plenty of telescopes, cameras, mounts, books and people who can show you how it do it. All you need is the passion and the will to do it.

]]> By: Astrofiend http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24658 Astrofiend Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:10:11 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24658 Truly a stunning image. It never ceases to amaze me what talented amateurs with modern equipment can do these days. Next we'll be seeing amateur Ultra Deep Fields or something! Truly a stunning image. It never ceases to amaze me what talented amateurs with modern equipment can do these days. Next we'll be seeing amateur Ultra Deep Fields or something!

]]> By: Tammy Plotner http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24653 Tammy Plotner Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:37:45 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24653 Also note in the image the presence of dark dust obscuration areas around the Ring. This phenomena was pointed out to me at the eyepiece when observing with friends Stephen O'Meara and Brent Archinal. Also note in the image the presence of dark dust obscuration areas around the Ring. This phenomena was pointed out to me at the eyepiece when observing with friends Stephen O'Meara and Brent Archinal.

]]> By: Dave http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/26/reaching-for-the-ring-m57-by-dietmar-hager/comment-page-1/#comment-24621 Dave Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:38:22 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=15276#comment-24621 WOW! WOW!

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