Comments on: Spirit's Dust Dilemma http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/ Space and astronomy news Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:45:29 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: How to Get Six Pack Fast http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-2/#comment-63438 How to Get Six Pack Fast Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:58:11 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-63438 This topic is quite hot on the Internet at the moment. What do you pay attention to while choosing what to write about? This topic is quite hot on the Internet at the moment. What do you pay attention to while choosing what to write about?

]]> By: alandee http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-2/#comment-25367 alandee Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:52:59 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-25367 I know this isn't breaking news at the moment, but why don't they use some sort of wind power in conjunction with solar. There appears to be plenty of supplementary wind around, and overnight it could continue to charge the batteries, or keep them warm so they can do more science. Just a thought .. .. .. I know this isn't breaking news at the moment, but why don't they use some sort of wind power in conjunction with solar. There appears to be plenty of supplementary wind around, and overnight it could continue to charge the batteries, or keep them warm so they can do more science. Just a thought .. .. ..

]]> By: Al http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-2/#comment-19690 Al Tue, 06 May 2008 14:04:51 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19690 Why not windshield wipers for the solar panels? Another option would have been to install transparent shades to cover the panels during dust storms, and retract (downward, of course, to remove the dust) when the storms have passed. Why not windshield wipers for the solar panels? Another option would have been to install transparent shades to cover the panels during dust storms, and retract (downward, of course, to remove the dust) when the storms have passed.

]]> By: Bill http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-2/#comment-19603 Bill Mon, 05 May 2008 13:42:20 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19603 Hello Brad, The wheels are _under_ the panels, so I think flicking is out. Also the vehicle moves exceedingly slowly. So I think this is a low probability that the rocks bounced there. However the stronger argument for charging is the elongated pattern, which is hard to explain otherwise, as well as the absolute cleanness of the metal part. I'm all ears for an alternate explanation for these latter points. Hello Brad, The wheels are _under_ the panels, so I think flicking is out. Also the vehicle moves exceedingly slowly. So I think this is a low probability that the rocks bounced there. However the stronger argument for charging is the elongated pattern, which is hard to explain otherwise, as well as the absolute cleanness of the metal part. I'm all ears for an alternate explanation for these latter points.

]]> By: Mickey Schmidt http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19562 Mickey Schmidt Sun, 04 May 2008 17:04:49 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19562 Do the rovers still have the capability of raising the solar panels to the original stowed position? If the same screw mechanism that lowered the panels could now raise the panels vertically some or most of the dust would slide off, especially if a little jarring action could be added in the routine. Do the rovers still have the capability of raising the solar panels to the original stowed position? If the same screw mechanism that lowered the panels could now raise the panels vertically some or most of the dust would slide off, especially if a little jarring action could be added in the routine.

]]> By: g-man http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19441 g-man Fri, 02 May 2008 06:51:21 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19441 What a Dilemma!? I have read the above comments above and then, I gave this a little thought. Because I, like others don't want anything to go wrong with all of Hard Work and Highly Skilled Engineering that went on to create such an incredible Humanmites crawling around. What about creating Air Nozzles strategically located in various areas around the crawlers. And as soon as the landing is completed, a device similar to Carburetors on a car engine. Whatever air is available, will be Compressed into a couple or more chambers. They would be monitored to maintain what Pressure is needed. When Dust has reached it's maximum collective count, the system would then release the compressed air Laterally across the panels and the Dust would then be Blown away by the pointed nozzles! The biggest problem for me to wonder about, is replacing the Air back into the compression chambers by way of the carburetors! If I remember correctly, there is air on Mars, but very limited. Any, would be enough!? I think the system would not have to be running continuously, therefore, what little air there is, should be enough to allow the system to work!? What a Dilemma!?
I have read the above comments above and then, I gave this a little thought. Because I, like others don't want anything to go wrong with all of Hard Work and Highly Skilled Engineering that went on to create such an incredible Humanmites crawling around.

What about creating Air Nozzles strategically located in various areas around the crawlers.
And as soon as the landing is completed, a device similar to Carburetors on a car engine.

Whatever air is available, will be Compressed into a couple or more chambers. They would be monitored to maintain what Pressure is needed.

When Dust has reached it's maximum collective count, the system would then release the compressed air Laterally across
the panels and the Dust would then be Blown away by the pointed nozzles!

The biggest problem for me to wonder about, is replacing the Air back into the compression chambers by way of the carburetors!

If I remember correctly, there is air on Mars, but very limited. Any, would be enough!?

I think the system would not have to be running continuously, therefore, what little air there is, should be enough to allow the system to work!?

]]> By: Brad http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19437 Brad Fri, 02 May 2008 02:44:55 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19437 Bill- have you seen the photos of rocks that have been blown by the wind on Mars? Sure- there were extraordinary circumstances, but don't discount strange things like that, also far-flung pebbles from meteorite impacts. Pebbles flicked up by compression between the rover wheels and a rock. I'm sure I could think of several more ways that larger particles might get deposited on the rover... Bill- have you seen the photos of rocks that have been blown by the wind on Mars? Sure- there were extraordinary circumstances, but don't discount strange things like that, also far-flung pebbles from meteorite impacts. Pebbles flicked up by compression between the rover wheels and a rock. I'm sure I could think of several more ways that larger particles might get deposited on the rover…

]]> By: Bill http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19419 Bill Thu, 01 May 2008 22:18:05 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19419 typo....I meant "dielectric" typo….I meant "dielectric"

]]> By: Bill http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19418 Bill Thu, 01 May 2008 22:11:57 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19418 It seems apparent that there is clumping of material and different sized particles on the panel surface, even what looks like pebbles. There is also an elongated clump with a clean area around it. Designers of future solar-powered rovers may consider an electrodynamic system for removing what appears to be particles deposited and held together by electrical forces (no way the Martian winds will throw pebbles since they theoretically don't even have the force to create the dunes by particle transport). How could simple wind deposition create the elongated feature? I doubt mechanical means will rid the rover of this stuff if it's stuck on electrically. And I don't thinks it's magnetism...are solar panels magnetic? See if a steel shaving sticks to one. I also note that the metal edging the panel hinge is clear of debris...it will be incapable of charge buildup. The dielectic of the panel surface can retain a charge. It seems apparent that there is clumping of material and different sized particles on the panel surface, even what looks like pebbles. There is also an elongated clump with a clean area around it. Designers of future solar-powered rovers may consider an electrodynamic system for removing what appears to be particles deposited and held together by electrical forces (no way the Martian winds will throw pebbles since they theoretically don't even have the force to create the dunes by particle transport). How could simple wind deposition create the elongated feature? I doubt mechanical means will rid the rover of this stuff if it's stuck on electrically. And I don't thinks it's magnetism…are solar panels magnetic? See if a steel shaving sticks to one. I also note that the metal edging the panel hinge is clear of debris…it will be incapable of charge buildup. The dielectic of the panel surface can retain a charge.

]]> By: Vanamonde http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19347 Vanamonde Thu, 01 May 2008 03:26:10 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19347 Spirit has been working on Mars since on January 4, 2004 - far beyond anyone's expectations. This has been one of NASA's most amazing successes. Even if it died today and as never heard from again, I would say that that they did everything right! Spirit has been working on Mars since on January 4, 2004 – far beyond anyone's expectations. This has been one of NASA's most amazing successes. Even if it died today and as never heard from again, I would say that that they did everything right!

]]> By: Silver Thread http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19344 Silver Thread Thu, 01 May 2008 03:05:13 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19344 I am absolutely awestruck by the fact that the rovers have lasted long enough to actually become Dusty. How incredible an achievement! It would be nice to remove the dust somehow, maybe traveling at maximum velocity for a short distance then reversing direction abruptly, but even if this is not feasible the mission has been a huge success. I am absolutely awestruck by the fact that the rovers have lasted long enough to actually become Dusty. How incredible an achievement! It would be nice to remove the dust somehow, maybe traveling at maximum velocity for a short distance then reversing direction abruptly, but even if this is not feasible the mission has been a huge success.

]]> By: Nancy Atkinson http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19323 Nancy Atkinson Thu, 01 May 2008 00:07:49 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19323 You've all come up with some interesting solutions, and unfortunately, its too late to change the design of the current rovers. But the engineers might keep the current dust issue in mind while designing the next generation of rovers. One important thing to remember is that no one thought the MER would last this long, so that we're having this discussion of how to make the rovers last even longer is a great testament to those who built them. A couple of folks here mentioned positioning the rovers so that the dust could slide off. Unfortunately, the dust has a magnetic quality to it, and it sticks to the solar panels quite well, unless a big gust of wind comes up. And as for bumping rover to knock the dust off... well, I don't think they're going to try that one either! Too risky. You've all come up with some interesting solutions, and unfortunately, its too late to change the design of the current rovers. But the engineers might keep the current dust issue in mind while designing the next generation of rovers. One important thing to remember is that no one thought the MER would last this long, so that we're having this discussion of how to make the rovers last even longer is a great testament to those who built them.

A couple of folks here mentioned positioning the rovers so that the dust could slide off. Unfortunately, the dust has a magnetic quality to it, and it sticks to the solar panels quite well, unless a big gust of wind comes up. And as for bumping rover to knock the dust off… well, I don't think they're going to try that one either! Too risky.

]]> By: Al Hall http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19322 Al Hall Thu, 01 May 2008 00:00:53 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19322 The last couple of comments are interesting. They seem plausible. Don't know what power it (they) have left in them.. If they would be capable of performing such maneuvers, though. I don't have an inside track with JPL... I am thinking, though that the solar cell surfaces may be electrostatic so it may take a good breeze to do the job... But I'm just guessing. I don't know. I do believe, however, that we shouldn't spend a considerable amount of time (and money) trying to get them operational again - once failure occurs - if we don't think we will get much more usage from them. But let's hope for the best. I would love to see them still in operation 10 years from now. The last couple of comments are interesting. They seem plausible. Don't know what power it (they) have left in them.. If they would be capable of performing such maneuvers, though. I don't have an inside track with JPL… I am thinking, though that the solar cell surfaces may be electrostatic so it may take a good breeze to do the job… But I'm just guessing. I don't know.
I do believe, however, that we shouldn't spend a considerable amount of time (and money) trying to get them operational again – once failure occurs – if we don't think we will get much more usage from them. But let's hope for the best. I would love to see them still in operation 10 years from now.

]]> By: Molecular http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19318 Molecular Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:15:43 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19318 Another more natural solution would be to have the rovers find something big enough to just bump into, a rock obviously. If it' big enough to span across both front or back wheels, with the panels tilted, it could just make a repeated forward and backwards movement until a good amount of dust falls off. Another thing is, if just by making a continuous forward or backwards movement against the rock, the vibration from the wheels turning alone, should shake away the accumulated dirt. :) Another more natural solution would be to have the rovers find something big enough to just bump into, a rock obviously. If it' big enough to span across both front or back wheels, with the panels tilted, it could just make a repeated forward and backwards movement until a good amount of dust falls off. Another thing is, if just by making a continuous forward or backwards movement against the rock, the vibration from the wheels turning alone, should shake away the accumulated dirt. :)

]]> By: Polzer http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19317 Polzer Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:13:30 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19317 Could they not just drive up a 'south' facing slope so that a) the sun shines more directly on the solar panel (like the roof of a house) and b) maybe even help some of the dust blow off the panel? Could they not just drive up a 'south' facing slope so that a) the sun shines more directly on the solar panel (like the roof of a house) and b) maybe even help some of the dust blow off the panel?

]]> By: maxh http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19314 maxh Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:16:19 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19314 A lighter weight solution would be a system based on the small ultrasonic vibration devices newer digital SLR cameras use to remove dust from their sensors. Just orient the panel at an angle and send a short burst of power to an ultrasonic motor attached to the panel. The dust should slide off. A lighter weight solution would be a system based on the small ultrasonic vibration devices newer digital SLR cameras use to remove dust from their sensors. Just orient the panel at an angle and send a short burst of power to an ultrasonic motor attached to the panel. The dust should slide off.

]]> By: Al Hall http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19311 Al Hall Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:53:09 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19311 Well, thankfully, I doubt that they will use solar panels anymore.. at least for rovers.. I think they will go exclusively with radioisotope generators and nuclear power from here on out. It still wouldn't be a bad idea to put a blower on, if practical. Just to keep the crap off. Btw.. No need to bring compressed air. Mars has an atmosphere, compress it on the ground. Just need a little compressor. (if practical). Also, the rovers use radioisotope generators for heating. The MSL shouldn't even have any solar panels.. I guess the technology just wasn't there at the time. Well, thankfully, I doubt that they will use solar panels anymore.. at least for rovers.. I think they will go exclusively with radioisotope generators and nuclear power from here on out. It still wouldn't be a bad idea to put a blower on, if practical. Just to keep the crap off.
Btw.. No need to bring compressed air. Mars has an atmosphere, compress it on the ground. Just need a little compressor. (if practical).
Also, the rovers use radioisotope generators for heating. The MSL shouldn't even have any solar panels.. I guess the technology just wasn't there at the time.

]]> By: ToSeek http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19310 ToSeek Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:43:10 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19310 JPL's approach to the dust accumulation issue was just to put as many solar cells on the rovers as the mass budget and size would allow. Any other solution involves added complexity - and keep in mind that mass is a critical commodity onboard a spacecraft. Taking a kilogram or two of compressed air just in case it might help clean the arrays is NOT an option! JPL's approach to the dust accumulation issue was just to put as many solar cells on the rovers as the mass budget and size would allow. Any other solution involves added complexity – and keep in mind that mass is a critical commodity onboard a spacecraft. Taking a kilogram or two of compressed air just in case it might help clean the arrays is NOT an option!

]]> By: Hex http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19299 Hex Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:26:50 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19299 A high pressure vessel connected with a hose to a tipped blower at the end of the arm would have worked. A high pressure vessel connected with a hose to a tipped blower at the end of the arm would have worked.

]]> By: Clint http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19297 Clint Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:57:49 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19297 I remember NASA when they didn't know the meaning of the words "we can't" or "it's impossible". If they knew the dust was going to be a problem, why didn't they come up with a way to solve the problem? Don't get me wrong, the rovers are fantastic, they've gone well over their anticipated expiration dates, and the science they are providing is wonderful. But I wonder how much longer they would be able to work if those people who knew of the shortcomings, actually saw fit to fix the problem. I remember NASA when they didn't know the meaning of the words "we can't" or "it's impossible". If they knew the dust was going to be a problem, why didn't they come up with a way to solve the problem?

Don't get me wrong, the rovers are fantastic, they've gone well over their anticipated expiration dates, and the science they are providing is wonderful. But I wonder how much longer they would be able to work if those people who knew of the shortcomings, actually saw fit to fix the problem.

]]> By: Al Hall http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19292 Al Hall Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:23:18 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19292 My guess is that they truly were expecting a short mission, so didn't think dust would be a factor.. At least I hope that was what they were thinking. Let's hope it will be taken into consideration for the MSL and future missions. My guess is that they truly were expecting a short mission, so didn't think dust would be a factor.. At least I hope that was what they were thinking.
Let's hope it will be taken into consideration for the MSL and future missions.

]]> By: Dave http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19278 Dave Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:22:28 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19278 One would wonder if the apparatus used to deploy the solar panels could be activated and maybe cause some of the dust to fall off.. I am surprised that if they knew dust would be a problem that they did not design in a workable solution such as turning the solar panels perpendicular so that some if not most of the dust would fall off... One would wonder if the apparatus used to deploy the solar panels could be activated and maybe cause some of the dust to fall off.. I am surprised that if they knew dust would be a problem that they did not design in a workable solution such as turning the solar panels perpendicular so that some if not most of the dust would fall off…

]]> By: dmedici http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19259 dmedici Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:28:59 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19259 Al is right, I was thinking that if they have any power at all, couldn't they put a little broom on there for a sweep? One sweep should get a good percentage of power back. Al is right, I was thinking that if they have any power at all, couldn't they put a little broom on there for a sweep? One sweep should get a good percentage of power back.

]]> By: Al Hall http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/30/spirits-dust-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19247 Al Hall Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:50:42 +0000 http://www.universetoday.com/?p=13976#comment-19247 I wonder how practical it would have been to install a couple of little blowers or fans. :-( Long live Spirit and Opportunity. I wonder how practical it would have been to install a couple of little blowers or fans. :-(
Long live Spirit and Opportunity.

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